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Spy Vs. Spy: The Music Of Ornette Coleman
John Zorn
1989
Wikipedia
Reviews
Like a review? Give it a thumb up to help us display relevant reviews!Hey, reader! If you can't find the full album anywhere, email me at sodaco3@gmail.com and I'll send a zipped file of the songs. John Zorn. Hmmm.....let's talk about John Zorn. He's a jazz artist (saxophone) who specializes in avant-garde jazz. This alone will turn away quite a few people, and I can't blame them: avant-garde art is inherently pretentious with it's "ooo, look at how I deconstruct certain pervasive elements in art and rearrange them for new experiences". It's pretty anarchist, and anarchists SUCK! Given this, I'm pretty surprised that Zorn is even on this list. I would've went with his much more popular "Naked City", but maybe that was too "jazz-rock" for 1001. Regardless, most people are going to walk away not enjoying John Zorn's work. So, what is he doing with this album? Well, he's got a 5-piece band built of two alto-saxophones, a bass, and TWO DRUMMERS! Neat. Double drummers is always risky but it's avant-garde so we'll let it slide. Cool production note: each saxophone is playing in a different channel (Zorn is in the right; listen for his licks!). Also of note is that everyone playing is improvising, giving a sort of full sound that surrounds the listener like a chaotic hug. Can you feel it? Zorn's compositions are interesting, as he opts to do these much shorter tracks that don't stick around for long before moving on the the next one. Zorn is heavily inspired by the hardcore punk scene in New York, London, and Tokyo at the time, particularly the rise in grindcore (see: Scum by Napalm Death). That sort of quick-and-dirty, attack on the ears is something that was very much inspired from grindcore and can be seen crossing over in jazz through Zorn. Again, most people will not like this, but for what it's worth I think it's a cool approach to jazz. By the 80's, Jazz had pretty well split; smooth jazz was on the rise with the likes of Kenny G, producing the most accessible, commercial music possible. Meanwhile, Jazz was being used more as a prop for other genres, such as acid jazz in the UK being a combination of electronic beats with jazz (great for clubs), or hip-hop producers incorporating jazz samples in their beats, leading to the rise of jazz rap in the late 80's and early 90's. This comes AFTER the prominence of avant-garde jazz actually, so Zorn is late to the party and very much on his own. Regardless, his approach to jazz with the mindset of hardcore punk makes for a fresh and thrilling listening experience. Overall, I think there's a lot one can take from this album, but they'll need to be open to the weirdness of it all. Do not expect structure, melodies, and rhythms that ground most songs. Instead, listen for how each instrument is playing off the others while also being totally independent from the song. There are times in this record where the stars align and you can hear the purposefulness of Zorn's band coming together in creating some really rad shit. But you gotta be open to it, or you'll just walk away thinking it's a total stinker. If you liked this record, consider listening to Ornette Coleman's stuff! I recommend "The Shape of Jazz to Come" and "Free Jazz", both records that did NOT make this list because Coleman ISN'T ANYWHERE ON THE LIST, DESPITE HIS NAME BEING HONORED BY THIS ALBUM. FUCK YOUUUUUUU 1001 ALBUMS!!!!
Just really terrible, very hard to listen to, and I say this as a lover of jazz. "Like a migraine in music form" -my wife
Tried to listen to this but there was something wrong with the YouTube file - it was just 40 minutes of a bunch of toddlers goofing around in a garage with an old saxophone and half a drum set.
I’ve listened to, and enjoyed, Ornette Coleman. I’ve listened to, and enjoyed, John Zorn. This sounds exactly like how I’d imagine Ornette Coleman played by John Zorn. This is music for masochists.
This album is possibly the worst album I have ever listened to, and that may be generous. I love experimentation, but this experiment should've stayed in the lab, John. From top to bottom, this was an assault on the senses. I had an ear infection listening to this, and I enjoyed the ear infection more. I cannot find a single redeemable thing about this album. I had to pause the album for about 15 minutes, and those 15 minutes were a sweet Oasis in a dessert of pointless cacophony without rhythm. How do you have two drummers and a bassist and use none of them effectively? All the great elements of any genre that could be compared were missing. None of the soul, punch, or craftsmanship of Jazz, none of the rhythm of thrash, no groove, no vocals, no variety. This sounds like vomit incarnate.
This sent me down the rabbit hole of music in psychological warfare. Truly an abomination.
The overall effect is of speed and density. At least two LP's of musical material is compressed to forty minutes. I have only the lightest grounding in Ornette's discography, but it's enough to bring me into each tune. With the exception of Peace Warriors, which gets a bit vampy (not a good thing in this form factor), there's plenty of distinction to find aural purchase on. One saxophone or the other is often playing something slower, or they're both holding a tone, or the drums become legible, or a bass line emerges. This doesn't abstract the tunes as much as I thought it would: The rhythm section is weird, with the drummers departing from all tradition and creating the unique texture, but there are intact melodies galore.
I know many people, including some whose opinions I hold in high regard, really go for this side of Zorn's eclectic catalogue. This struck me as a little less beatnik-screamo than Naked City but still not my cup of tea. Of course this is coming from the asshole who gave The Doors by The Doors 4 stars. An exhausting listen for me and the first item my Youtube Music subscription failed me on.
Une incompréhension totale à l'écoute de cet album. Que cherche à nous dire John Zorn? Quel message tente t'il de nous faire parvenir? Je vais tâcher de percer le mystère John Zorn, et reviendrai vers vous dès que j'ai du nouveau.
What the fuck did I just listen to? It's like whoever orchestrated this mess told all the musicians, "Don't worry about what everyone else is playing, just play whatever you want as loud, hard, and fast as you can." I'm sure there is someone somewhere who enjoys listening to this type of thing, but it's not me. 1 star.
Thrashcore jazz? What in god? Holy shit, I guess we are in for a violent, unhinged jazz onslaught. Good Old Days takes a little off the gas pedal for some more synchronized power. The drums are just SO BOOMY! They sound like they are 50 feet away! This is a fun album to just sonically surf through. Ecars is a fun tune with the heaviest end beat imaginable. Mob Job is like a pulling up to the station as the last act of this jazz rollercoaster of bodyblows and razor blades.
What a thunderous cacophony! I'm surprised I've never heard this. I can't say I exactly enjoy a whole album of it but for a track or two this is kind of stunning in it's intensity. Two sets of drums recorded with some significant reverb and dueling saxophones going at it all at once is quite a unique arrangement. Really stopped me in my tracks when I first put it on. My ears took a minute to even be able to process what they were hearing. I like this but I'm giving it a 3 because I know I'd never put this on as an album or tolerate it if someone else did. There's very little variation of mood or relief from the intensity. Again, a track or two is exhilarating and would be mind blowing live but any more than that gets exhausting real quick.
Un album absolument effrayant quand on connaît le contexte dans lequel il a été enregistré. En 1989, alors que John Zorn sort d'un concert, celui-ci appelle un taxi. Il s'assoit sur la banquette arrière et remarque que la place à sa gauche est occupée par un fût métallique sur lequel est dessiné une tête de mort ainsi que le mot DANGER. Il donne sa destination au taxi qui se met en route. Quelques instants plus tard, la voiture entre en collision avec un poids lourd. À son réveil à l'hôpital, trois jours après l'accident, John Zorn est horrifié : son saxophone a été soudé à sa bouche. Il ne fait désormais qu'un avec l'instrument. Il sort alors de sa chambre puis du bâtiment et s'en va semer la terreur dans les rues de New-York avec ses mélodies très rapides et aléatoires.
Genre: Avant-Garde Jazz 2/5 I will say this: in some fucked up way, I do feel that I needed to hear this before I died. An absolute onslaught of noise, squealing saxophones and manic free-time drumming, sometimes so over-bearing and wild that laughter just spurted out of me, Spy vs. Spy is truly unique. It was fun playing the game, "Oh, There's The Song", where each song would start with a rushed take on an Ornette Coleman piece, go absolutely fucking crazy in the middle, then come on back to the song again, therein you'd say "Oh, There's The Song". Generally all in the course of a minute-and-a-half. And there's like 12 of them. The last few tracks slow it down big time compared to what preceded it, giving us a look at 4 really tremendous, classically trained jazz musicians, covering songs from a pioneer of their genre. Truthfully, the whole project showcases their talents. It takes a lot of training to be able to make saxophones sound like this, but it certainly isn't rendered in any way that makes it accessible. Put this on for a laugh next time you're in the car with someone, maybe The Disguise or Rejoicing.
Truly horrible. Unpleasant and unlistenable, with an overall historical profile that suggests it has no business being on this list. It's a shame that this was included over so many other worthy albums.
Wow, I didn't know that music can make you so uncomfortable. I didn't like it at all, Korn was at least listenable and sometimes fun.
What happens when you give a bunch of spazzes, that have only played with their instruments for an hour or so, a gigantic bag of cocaine. This chaotic dumpsterfire of "jazz" apparently.... 1/5.
I loved listening to this. It was surprising and sharp. Chaotic, yet organized. It kinda felt like my life, haha. I have a feeling that if I owned a coffee shop, this might be on rotation there. But, softly!
Not for everyone, I suppose, but I love the organized chaos that John Zorn brings, especially when paired with Ornette Coleman.
Hard to find an actual copy of this--not even sure it's on YouTube? But the jamz are great.
i couldnt find the studio album so I listened to the originals by Ornette Coleman. While my depth of knowledge of jazz music is limited I thoroughly enjoyed his work.
It one of the strangest things that I ever listen to, but still very powerful and I don't know why I liked it, but I liked it. I'm not a jazz fan, but this kind of thing touches me in some way that is strongest than my comprehension
this specific album was not on Spotify, but John Zorn's songs were. I liked a lot of them, but the more out-there songs/instrumentals were not my favorite.
That was fucking awesome. I love the intensity and the drums sound great! I typically learn towards fast-paced music, so this is right up my alley. This is basically the hardcore punk of jazz music.
Explosive. Noise rock fused with jazz. Very energetic, very upbeat, very experimental and free. The album does not really have any sort of direction or flow, but it is fun to listen to and keeps me on the edge of my seat. At times it can seem like a battle of the bands between the two saxophonists, and at others they synergize well; I prefer the latter. A great showcase of talent here and it is good to hear something so experimental.
This was a special album, chaotic jazz if I had to describe it. I liked it more then i excpected. 7/10
Veel klonk hetzelfde, maar toch weer anders. Niet 100 % mijn ding, maar wel van genoten
Well, this sure is Jazz lol. Idk why but this just sounds chaotic to me. I know that's part of what Jazz is, but holy cow. Didn't listen to the whole thing cuz it's hard for me to find, but it was good. Hard to work to though.
listening to this on youtube like the old times. what an intro lol. chaotic as fuck, which is satisfying in a way lol. i've FELT like this. the album art is really appropriate. this is pretty new to me and idk if i'll come back to it but i'm certainly not bored atm. nvm i got bored at some point. they really did not stop one second until broadway blues lol.
Noisy, not huge on it, but that's mainly a style thing rather than an objectively bad record.
so glad i’m hearing this before i die. dumb chaos kinda love it. can’t give it more than a 3 though
I couldn't access it on Spotify but had to find an incomplete Youtube Playlist. Boy, barrage indeed. I think I'd like it more if it were more noisy, ironically? If it were more of a single tonality it might create more interesting tones, but as it is there's just tooooo much going on.
This is so intense, I cannot concentrate. I respect this but I don't enjoy it. Does make me want to explore his music more though.
Couldn't find this specific album on Spotify but listened to a lot of Ornette Coleman. Great sax and stand up bass!
Nice. Not my favorite Zorn album - I would have rather seen the incredibly fun Morricone deconstruction The Big Gundown or the somber and poignant Kristallnacht on this list, or if you're going for the hyperactive cartoon jazz specifically, the first Naked City album, or the jazz/grindcore crossover, Painkiller's Guts of a Virgin. With all that being said, this is still a great Zorn album, and I'd rather have this on here than nothing at all.
Pros: - Exciting free jazz! - While listening, I didn't realize that I had another chrome tab open that had a chess streamer talking in the background at a very low volume. She was talking about pawn promotion and when the songs finished I would hear that faintly and it enhanced the experience! - If you forget to grab a coffee in the morning, just put this on. It'll wake yo ass up! - In the big scheme of abstract music / modern music / new music, this is totally palatable. Cons: - While incredibly dynamic, I would love some dynamicity (had to google that to check) in the tempi! Let's get some slow jams in there. Misc: - John Zorn is a cool wild dude. One of my regrets from when I was in music school was not going to his music venue The Stone ever- which had an arrangement with my school program where we would get reduced/free tickets and then we would get school credit for attending a modern music performance. Friends went a few times and ended up meeting him, gah! the regret! - He's definitely a modern pioneer of free jazz, and the genre is so important to popularizing the idea that any type of music can be free and untamed. I'm speculating, but a large amount of people probably find it novel and/or interesting but maybe without seeing the value beyond a single listen through. But outside of that large amount there's probably a few people that find the concept of this kind of music really intriguing and love it. For that reason alone I think it deserves a place on the list. I genuinely feel that every musician who writes music has a little bit of a duty to do something new with their music that expands music as a whole, even if they are a 99% clone of their favorite artist, if they just do 1% of something new that allows a new younger musician to make something with that 1%, then that is fulfilling a duty to the worldwide community of music. John Zorn is probably more like 75% new ideas and 25% built on the backs of people like Ornette Coleman, so John Zorn is a real one.
So THIS is “death jazz”! It’s definitely an acquired taste, but I do love trying to pick up on melodies, only to be painfully wrong every time. The chaos almost puts you in a trance, and has a calming-ish affect…? But would also be good to put on loop if you were trying to torture someone…?
A little tough to find online because it's not available on streaming but almost all of the songs are on Youtube and someone put together a playlist in tracklist order. This is so up my alley right now because I've actually been listening to a lot of Ornette Coleman recently while I write. He's an incredible jazz artist who essentially invented free jazz, where you deliberately play atonal notes and sometimes ignore the melody all together. (The album of his I've listened to the most is "Change of the Century" and it's a good intro to the style because it's mostly melodic jazz with some experimental stuff in the improvisations.) I think it's so cool that someone drew a line between free jazz and hardcore punk. I remember listening to the title track on "Change of the Century" and thinking, "This is crazy. This has such a punk rock attitude.” It still sounds wild in 2022 and must have been truly nuts in the late 1950's. But a lot of the songs that John Zorn and his band cover on this album are already so fast and chaotic that playing them even faster and louder and more chaotic turns them into more of an experimental curiosity than anything I'd actually want to listen to for fun. You have to be in the mood to be musically assaulted. Still, some songs really worked for me. "Good Old Days" has blasts of pure noise but breathes enough that you can follow the structure. (It was also one of the only songs I knew going into this so it was cool to hear.) "The Disguise," "Blues Connotation," "Ecars," and "Broadway Blues" stood out to me too. (Also, having two drummers is such a crazy, cool thing to do. I love that.)
Wikipedia says the album "approaches free jazz from the perspective of hardcore punk, particularly taking note of the contemporary innovations of thrashcore and grindcore." FOH with that horseshit. There's a ton of technical skill on display, but it's masturbatory and painful. Those words shouldn't go together. Best track: Good Old Days
Je n’ai pas ecoute, la 1ere chanson sur youtube etait too much pour moi. Et l’album n,est pas sur spotify.
Unremitting. I didn't mind it when I was concentrating/working but not the kind of thing I'd put on a lazy Summer evening.
I just didn’t get it. I could keep listening to it just to appreciate some of the technical proficiency (only reason I didn’t go 1 star) but it definitely didn’t appeal to me. Also I’m led to believe he maybe just ruined Ornette Coleman’s music lol ?
Production: 10/20 Songwriting: 6/20 Innovation: 12/20 Bangers: 0/20 Emotional response: 2/20 =30 It was very lucky to get two stars because it sounded like a fucking headache. I had to give it relatively high for innovation because I’ve literally never heard anything like this before, and I gave it half marks for production because I could only find are YouTube playlist of it, some of them are quite badly compressed so it was hard for me to tell what was going on production wise
Man I just can’t subject myself to this. The proficiency of playing is impressive but this is just too much loud, angry chaos.
Um . . . I said the previous album was unchallenging to listen to. That is not the case here. I’ve always found jazz a kinda gimmicky genre and never really felt the desire to do a deep dive into it, which I’m sure is what would give me an appreciation for it; and this is that only more so. In the global stats for the website I’m getting these album suggestions from, which lets you rate them, this is the 6th lowest rated album. Favourite track: “Good Old Days.”
Not my thing. I guess I don't get this kind of jazz. No emotional connection. It's forgettable.
I hated listening to this, but I respect this album for being what it is and just going for it
I couldn't find this record anywhere. The only thing I could find was a Spotify playlist of the Ornette Coleman songs on this record. The playlist is titled "Spy vs Spy: Ornette Coleman Plays the Music of Ornette Coleman That John Zorn Would Later Play Faster." HAHAHAHA! So, taking this music on its merits - It's some great jazz. But I can't really rate Zorn's version, so I'll give it a 2.5, rounded down to 2.0 for not being available. And, for seemingly trying to improve upon something already great.
John Zorn can fuck right off, but not in a hateful way. You hear the first track, you've heard them all. Best Tracks: Chronology; Good Old Days; Blues Connotation
Artsy, fartsy, knarzi. Ich bin ja ein großer Fan von solcher Art Musik, aber das ist einfach nur Schrott.
Plainly, this is way outside of my normal quite eclectic musical boundary. Life's too short unfortunately.
I like jazz, but I don't posses enough wisdom and genre understanding to find this album satisfactory. I couldn't find any pleasure in the cacophony of sounds, aggressive drumming in these interpretations of Ornette Coleman (original is much more like my cup of tea). However, in all this musical chaos it had some somewhat enjoyable moments, which corresponded with the band gaining (perhaps unwanted) harmony. Overall it wasn't a good album for me, but I understand the reasons to put it on the list.
Listen...just because you "can" get together with a drummer and trumpeter in a fluorescent-lit office at 4 am on a tuesday, inhale a 1'' x 8'' line of [redacted], and have an epileptic episode into a saxophone until the room is drenched in sweat and [redacted], doesn't mean you "should"... Though I do appreciate that kind of explosion of sound is contemporary art, raw emotion tripping over itself in an avalanche of controlled chaos. I don't dislike it, but it does not bring great pleasure to my ears. Intrigue? Yes. Pleasure? No. Do I respect it? Yes. Do I want more? No.
idk if audio-induced epilepsy is a thing, but if it is, there should be a warning at the beginning of this album
Whoa. Exuberant sonic assault. I mean, I'm pleased for them and all that they were able to have fun, but this just smacked me in the goolies. For half an hour.
Hated this, I like jazz but i don't like the discordant clashing jazz i just don't find it pleasant.
Free Jazz is not my thing. But at least I got to know the term Free Jazz. But luckily there were some not that extreme Free Jazz song on there. Spotify did not work for me on this Album so I had to turn to YouTube.
...Todo el maldito disco suena como si estuvieras viendo "Saturday Night Live" y estuvieran por irse a comerciales... he dicho
I was today years old when I discovered that Free Jazz is a thing and today years old when I discovered that I am not a fan.
First, the important business: Spotify can dine on a bowl of fat ones for not letting you play albums (even shuffled!) on the free version of the mobile app. Instead, you must listen with the other artist's stuff shuffled into your shuffled album. Google confirms this is a conscious choice to be insufferable. BIOYA. Second, the allegedly important business: this album. I feel like I'm being run over by a gaggle of saxophonists. This is jazz for crackheads. I feel like I'm in a manic montage in a Tom and Jerry cartoon being artfully brutalized in comic ways. These drums are a Stone Cold Stunner ad nauseam ad infinitum and my eardrums are the Rock bouncing around everywhere. I am far too besieged to score it highly yet far too amused to score it TOO lowly. Too, by way of its homophone two, is the operative word. An album I NEED to hear? In the immortal words of Squidward: "I didn't need to see that." 2/10
Just frenetic jazz ! I’m afraid I can’t even be bothered to listen to that racket again ! *
Definitely not for me! How can they put this shite on the list and miss off Blind Faith, and HOTH and Presence?
This album was not on Spotify so I didn’t listen to the whole thing but I’ve heard enough to know this is not for me
Not available for me on Spotify. From what I listened to of it on YouTube, this isn't for me. I'm not sure who it even is for. Literally just a wall of sound.
Awful, like having a class of pre teen music students play whatever they'd like all at the same time
Noise. No better than trashy garage rock or punk. No excuse for it just because it’s rooted in jazz. It is not a pleasant listening experience.
Spotify couldn't play this album for me, glanced over it on YouTube but what the hell was this supposed to be?? Terrible, messy and just plain grating to listen to.
This album is utterly bizarre and could be effectively used as an instrument of torture. It's interpretations of old free jazz music but played much faster and less competently. This is album #73 and it's the first one I haven't been able to finish.
Nope. I mean, I realize there's and "art" to this and probably some transcendental poetic meaning to it all - but it's lost on me.
Couldn't do it. Holy fuck. I was asked to turn it off by Mel which really was the only small push I needed.
Not as abrasive as others have made out, but still a tough listen. There's probably something clever and meaningful in amongst the chaos, but I'll be damned if I'm going to try and find it.
Absolutely hectic bullshit that made me feel even more anxious than I normally do on a daily basis… hope I never have to listen again
This site needs an option for zero, or negative stars. So somebody recorded my middle school band, while we were warming up, and decided to release it as an avant grade album of jazz fusion's version of speed metal. This crap is the musical equivalent of a root canal being performed without any anesthetic.
Nope. Big nope. That's worse than terrible. Does he actually make a living from this crap?
Najgorszy album jakiego słuchałem w życiu. Lubię hardkorowe rzeczy muzycznie z różnych gatunków. Nie chodzi mi nawet o brak melodii, tylko o brak jakiegokolwiek konceptu za tym idącego. To nie jest jakieś świadome łamanie zasad muzycznych, oni dmuchają w trąbki i trąbki pierdzą. Nie mogę oprzeć się wrażeniu, że wrzucenie tego do tego challenge'u przez autora to łechtanie swojego ego "hehe, ludzie nie rozumiejo, a to taki album cudny". No właśnie rozumiem - nie mam nic do tego że komuś się podoba. Ale mam coś do tego, że ten album na liście jest, mimo że to lista albumów z muzyki popularnej, a tego nawet nie ma na streamingach. Obecność tego albumu w tym wyzwaniu to splunięcie w mordę wszystkim cudownym albumom, których tu nie ma.
Przesłuchałem zarówno aranżacje pana Zorna jak i oryginalne utwory i nie ma porównania. Spy vs spy jest przesytem instrumentów, tempa i złożoności. > John, jak dużo chcesz perkusji? > Tak. Nie jest to zdecydowanie album do posłuchania przy kominku i lampce wina, a bardziej pasuje na scenie trash metalowej.
Chciałbym serdecznie Panu Zornowi podziękować za podwaliny pod popularyzację hardcore'u. Jestem pewien, że świetnie to brzmiało zagrane na żywo, a artyści dali z siebie na scenie wszystko. Muzykę traktuję jako sztukę użytkową i tak też rozpatruje te albumy - ten się nie nadaje do słuchania w żadnej sytuacji, jaką byłbym w stanie wymyślić. Na płycie to po prostu nie brzmi. Earrape - Monsters Inc. ma bardzo podobny zamysł, a słucha się tego o wiele lepiej mimo tragicznej jakości. Dziękuję za ciekawostkę.
This is not at all my cup of tea, sounds like the stuff pretentious jazz-heads pretend to like because they think it'll make them cool. It's pretty much just unintelligible nose. And don't get me wrong, I love some good free jazz or industrial noise, but it's gotta have soul, and that's not coming through for me here. On the positive side, the recording is pretty cool - drums are super full and deep, and I like how there's a different sax squealing in each of the stereo channels. Overall though, the original arrangements from Coleman are much better, I think I'll stick with those.
Very fast and chaotic start to an album. Tough to follow and a bit tiring to keep up with and listen. Difficult to enjoy listening to this.
Sad to say this one was really, *really* not my cup of tea. I would like at some point to listen to and learn more about jazz, as I think it's a diverse genre with a lot of cool music from the very little I've been exposed to. BUT this album really threw me into the deep end and then proceeded to drown me in the deep end. Near the end sometimes there was a melody I could grasp onto, but it wasn't enough. Maybe if I knew a lot more about jazz I could appreciate this, but I right now I can't.
This is the first album that I found legitimately difficult to get through. I don't know enough about jazz to know why this is important or good. Frankly it just sounded like discordant, unpleasant noise and I would not care if I never listened to any of these songs again. 1 star, solidly the worst album we have listened to, and it would take something truly horrific to unseat this. Zorn should have stuck to coming up with lemmas.
Brexit in audio form. Rating: 1/5 Playlist track: [None - not on Spotify (thank goodness)] Date listened: 03/05/22
Not on Spotify