Spy Vs. Spy: The Music Of Ornette Coleman
John Zorn
1989
Album Summary
Spy vs Spy: The Music of Ornette Coleman is a 1989 album by American composer and saxophonist/multi-instrumentalist John Zorn, featuring the compositions of Ornette Coleman performed in the brief, intense style of Zorn's hardcore miniatures. The liner notes thank Ornette and Denardo Coleman, Mick Harris of Napalm Death, Ted Epstein of Blind Idiot God, Pil of Lip Cream (a Japanese thrashcore group), The Accused, Craig Flanagan, DRI, CBGB, and "the New York-London-Tokyo Hardcore Triangle". The cover artwork was created by indie comics personality Mark Beyer (of Amy and Jordan fame). The album itself approaches free jazz from the perspective of hardcore punk, particularly taking note of the contemporary innovations of thrashcore and grindcore. Zorn would later pursue these preoccupations in the thrash jazz group Naked City. Like some classic free jazz albums (Free Jazz, Ascension, Archie Shepp's Mama Too Tight), different saxophonists improvise simultaneously in stereo. Tim Berne appears on the left channel, while John Zorn is recorded on the right channel.
WikipediaHey, reader! If you can't find the full album anywhere, email me at sodaco3@gmail.com and I'll send a zipped file of the songs. John Zorn. Hmmm.....let's talk about John Zorn. He's a jazz artist (saxophone) who specializes in avant-garde jazz. This alone will turn away quite a few people, and I can't blame them: avant-garde art is inherently pretentious with it's "ooo, look at how I deconstruct certain pervasive elements in art and rearrange them for new experiences". It's pretty anarchist, and anarchists SUCK! Given this, I'm pretty surprised that Zorn is even on this list. I would've went with his much more popular "Naked City", but maybe that was too "jazz-rock" for 1001. Regardless, most people are going to walk away not enjoying John Zorn's work. So, what is he doing with this album? Well, he's got a 5-piece band built of two alto-saxophones, a bass, and TWO DRUMMERS! Neat. Double drummers is always risky but it's avant-garde so we'll let it slide. Cool production note: each saxophone is playing in a different channel (Zorn is in the right; listen for his licks!). Also of note is that everyone playing is improvising, giving a sort of full sound that surrounds the listener like a chaotic hug. Can you feel it? Zorn's compositions are interesting, as he opts to do these much shorter tracks that don't stick around for long before moving on the the next one. Zorn is heavily inspired by the hardcore punk scene in New York, London, and Tokyo at the time, particularly the rise in grindcore (see: Scum by Napalm Death). That sort of quick-and-dirty, attack on the ears is something that was very much inspired from grindcore and can be seen crossing over in jazz through Zorn. Again, most people will not like this, but for what it's worth I think it's a cool approach to jazz. By the 80's, Jazz had pretty well split; smooth jazz was on the rise with the likes of Kenny G, producing the most accessible, commercial music possible. Meanwhile, Jazz was being used more as a prop for other genres, such as acid jazz in the UK being a combination of electronic beats with jazz (great for clubs), or hip-hop producers incorporating jazz samples in their beats, leading to the rise of jazz rap in the late 80's and early 90's. This comes AFTER the prominence of avant-garde jazz actually, so Zorn is late to the party and very much on his own. Regardless, his approach to jazz with the mindset of hardcore punk makes for a fresh and thrilling listening experience. Overall, I think there's a lot one can take from this album, but they'll need to be open to the weirdness of it all. Do not expect structure, melodies, and rhythms that ground most songs. Instead, listen for how each instrument is playing off the others while also being totally independent from the song. There are times in this record where the stars align and you can hear the purposefulness of Zorn's band coming together in creating some really rad shit. But you gotta be open to it, or you'll just walk away thinking it's a total stinker. If you liked this record, consider listening to Ornette Coleman's stuff! I recommend "The Shape of Jazz to Come" and "Free Jazz", both records that did NOT make this list because Coleman ISN'T ANYWHERE ON THE LIST, DESPITE HIS NAME BEING HONORED BY THIS ALBUM. FUCK YOUUUUUUU 1001 ALBUMS!!!!
Tried to listen to this but there was something wrong with the YouTube file - it was just 40 minutes of a bunch of toddlers goofing around in a garage with an old saxophone and half a drum set.
Just really terrible, very hard to listen to, and I say this as a lover of jazz. "Like a migraine in music form" -my wife
I lasted 5 minutes. I now have a headache and the urge for some heroin.
I’ve listened to, and enjoyed, Ornette Coleman. I’ve listened to, and enjoyed, John Zorn. This sounds exactly like how I’d imagine Ornette Coleman played by John Zorn. This is music for masochists.
This sent me down the rabbit hole of music in psychological warfare. Truly an abomination.
This album is possibly the worst album I have ever listened to, and that may be generous. I love experimentation, but this experiment should've stayed in the lab, John. From top to bottom, this was an assault on the senses. I had an ear infection listening to this, and I enjoyed the ear infection more. I cannot find a single redeemable thing about this album. I had to pause the album for about 15 minutes, and those 15 minutes were a sweet Oasis in a dessert of pointless cacophony without rhythm. How do you have two drummers and a bassist and use none of them effectively? All the great elements of any genre that could be compared were missing. None of the soul, punch, or craftsmanship of Jazz, none of the rhythm of thrash, no groove, no vocals, no variety. This sounds like vomit incarnate.
You know what? Fuck you. 3 stars. After reading some of the more informative reviews here and putting this LP in context, I'm willing to give it a decent rating for being completely different than anything else I've heard on this list. While the first half is an absolute auditory mess (and I would bet more than a few of the people here don't even listen for more than 5 minutes), the back half shapes up into some pretty energetic improv work that had my toe tapping. It may not be an easy listen and it does take some understanding, but at least it's not another tepid Britpop or Bob Dylan album
The overall effect is of speed and density. At least two LP's of musical material is compressed to forty minutes. I have only the lightest grounding in Ornette's discography, but it's enough to bring me into each tune. With the exception of Peace Warriors, which gets a bit vampy (not a good thing in this form factor), there's plenty of distinction to find aural purchase on. One saxophone or the other is often playing something slower, or they're both holding a tone, or the drums become legible, or a bass line emerges. This doesn't abstract the tunes as much as I thought it would: The rhythm section is weird, with the drummers departing from all tradition and creating the unique texture, but there are intact melodies galore.
Truly horrible. Unpleasant and unlistenable, with an overall historical profile that suggests it has no business being on this list. It's a shame that this was included over so many other worthy albums.
12th July 2022 Listened while in the office, played life sized monopoly with Sav and Sal in the evening. At one point a fleet of police cars drove past the window with sirens blazing and I couldn’t tell if that was part of the music or not.
I know many people, including some whose opinions I hold in high regard, really go for this side of Zorn's eclectic catalogue. This struck me as a little less beatnik-screamo than Naked City but still not my cup of tea. Of course this is coming from the asshole who gave The Doors by The Doors 4 stars. An exhausting listen for me and the first item my Youtube Music subscription failed me on.
Une incompréhension totale à l'écoute de cet album. Que cherche à nous dire John Zorn? Quel message tente t'il de nous faire parvenir? Je vais tâcher de percer le mystère John Zorn, et reviendrai vers vous dès que j'ai du nouveau.
Genre: Avant-Garde Jazz 2/5 I will say this: in some fucked up way, I do feel that I needed to hear this before I died. An absolute onslaught of noise, squealing saxophones and manic free-time drumming, sometimes so over-bearing and wild that laughter just spurted out of me, Spy vs. Spy is truly unique. It was fun playing the game, "Oh, There's The Song", where each song would start with a rushed take on an Ornette Coleman piece, go absolutely fucking crazy in the middle, then come on back to the song again, therein you'd say "Oh, There's The Song". Generally all in the course of a minute-and-a-half. And there's like 12 of them. The last few tracks slow it down big time compared to what preceded it, giving us a look at 4 really tremendous, classically trained jazz musicians, covering songs from a pioneer of their genre. Truthfully, the whole project showcases their talents. It takes a lot of training to be able to make saxophones sound like this, but it certainly isn't rendered in any way that makes it accessible. Put this on for a laugh next time you're in the car with someone, maybe The Disguise or Rejoicing.
whoever gives this something higher than 1 star is off their fucking tits.
What the fuck did I just listen to? It's like whoever orchestrated this mess told all the musicians, "Don't worry about what everyone else is playing, just play whatever you want as loud, hard, and fast as you can." I'm sure there is someone somewhere who enjoys listening to this type of thing, but it's not me. 1 star.
It sounds like someone gave some random people some saxes and drums and said "go".
I really enjoyed this! Of course, by enjoyed, I mean I tolerated it. By tolerated it, I mean I'd rather have all of my skin chipped off with a cheese grater, whilst my dad mixes lemon juice with his own urine and pours it onto my raw, skinless body. All the while piranhas bite away at my feet, the piercing shrill of a whistle is blown in my face relentlessly and a montage of my worst ever erection moments is broadcast on giant TV screens to every major city in the world, than ever listen to this ever again.
John Zorn has made a work of genius that will transcend the ages. I went into this record completely blind and naive to what music could truly be. This damn incredible soundtrack feels like it has taken my aural virginity. My ears are bleeding for the first time, but it feels so good. My darkest desires have been set in motion, like a runaway train about to meet an explosive crescendo at the bottom of a rocky ravine. My windswept hair has Zorn's semen brushed through it and his dick is hanging out of my slack jaw as I listen in complete awe and adoration. I lust as it slithers its way into my psyche, into my trousers. If I could, I would marry this record so hard, that it would think that it's been fucked sideways by its own grandchild in the back of a station wagon heading 1000 miles an hour into the centre of the sun.
Thrashcore jazz? What in god? Holy shit, I guess we are in for a violent, unhinged jazz onslaught. Good Old Days takes a little off the gas pedal for some more synchronized power. The drums are just SO BOOMY! They sound like they are 50 feet away! This is a fun album to just sonically surf through. Ecars is a fun tune with the heaviest end beat imaginable. Mob Job is like a pulling up to the station as the last act of this jazz rollercoaster of bodyblows and razor blades.
That was fucking awesome. I love the intensity and the drums sound great! I typically learn towards fast-paced music, so this is right up my alley. This is basically the hardcore punk of jazz music.
What a thunderous cacophony! I'm surprised I've never heard this. I can't say I exactly enjoy a whole album of it but for a track or two this is kind of stunning in it's intensity. Two sets of drums recorded with some significant reverb and dueling saxophones going at it all at once is quite a unique arrangement. Really stopped me in my tracks when I first put it on. My ears took a minute to even be able to process what they were hearing. I like this but I'm giving it a 3 because I know I'd never put this on as an album or tolerate it if someone else did. There's very little variation of mood or relief from the intensity. Again, a track or two is exhilarating and would be mind blowing live but any more than that gets exhausting real quick.
Un album absolument effrayant quand on connaît le contexte dans lequel il a été enregistré. En 1989, alors que John Zorn sort d'un concert, celui-ci appelle un taxi. Il s'assoit sur la banquette arrière et remarque que la place à sa gauche est occupée par un fût métallique sur lequel est dessiné une tête de mort ainsi que le mot DANGER. Il donne sa destination au taxi qui se met en route. Quelques instants plus tard, la voiture entre en collision avec un poids lourd. À son réveil à l'hôpital, trois jours après l'accident, John Zorn est horrifié : son saxophone a été soudé à sa bouche. Il ne fait désormais qu'un avec l'instrument. Il sort alors de sa chambre puis du bâtiment et s'en va semer la terreur dans les rues de New-York avec ses mélodies très rapides et aléatoires.
Absolutely anxiety inducing less than a minute in. He certainly is doing his own thing and I—kinda—like it, but also I one hundred percent understand how someone wouldn't. It sounds like every musician was given sheet music for the song and told to just get through it as fast as they fucking could. I don't think I'll ever listen to this again, but it was surely interesting to hear what thrash and jazz would sound like together. In that sense, he did a great job, but music is no good if you can't enjoy it and I can't imagine where this could be enjoyed or who would ever seriously put this on. The timing of the drums rarely match up with the brass, which is not necessarily a bad thing, but it isn't done particularly well on this album. Also gets a tad repetitive. It looks like people are really hating on this album and all I can say is that I get it, at least more than most people it seems. 3/5
I'm glad that someone made this and it exists. I don't ever want to listen to it again. There's something about it, like when you go to an art gallery and see some pretentious shit and think, "My toddler could do that." But there is some subtle difference. This is the musical equivalent of Tate Modern finger painting.
Wow, I didn't know that music can make you so uncomfortable. I didn't like it at all, Korn was at least listenable and sometimes fun.
What happens when you give a bunch of spazzes, that have only played with their instruments for an hour or so, a gigantic bag of cocaine. This chaotic dumpsterfire of "jazz" apparently.... 1/5.
Absolutely hectic bullshit that made me feel even more anxious than I normally do on a daily basis… hope I never have to listen again
I loved listening to this. It was surprising and sharp. Chaotic, yet organized. It kinda felt like my life, haha. I have a feeling that if I owned a coffee shop, this might be on rotation there. But, softly!
Intense, demanding and thrilling, it is safe to say nothing else will sound quite like this on this whole project. There is something special when artists make something fresh from the sound around them and here two alto saxophones, two drums and bass make this ridiculous album which throws everything out the window whilst remaining compelling and exciting. It’s definitely challenging but there is something powerful in the emotional response of the listener, whether positive or negative. I think this might be a classic for the ages.
Jazz, met lekkere muzikale ritmische nummers. Qua mastering lekker strakke mix.
Not for everyone, I suppose, but I love the organized chaos that John Zorn brings, especially when paired with Ornette Coleman.
Hard to find an actual copy of this--not even sure it's on YouTube? But the jamz are great.
i couldnt find the studio album so I listened to the originals by Ornette Coleman. While my depth of knowledge of jazz music is limited I thoroughly enjoyed his work.
It one of the strangest things that I ever listen to, but still very powerful and I don't know why I liked it, but I liked it. I'm not a jazz fan, but this kind of thing touches me in some way that is strongest than my comprehension
Exellent avant garde jazz sound but cannot get the album unfortunately.
this specific album was not on Spotify, but John Zorn's songs were. I liked a lot of them, but the more out-there songs/instrumentals were not my favorite.
Couldn't find this exact album but listened to some other stuff. It was alright.
Explosive. Noise rock fused with jazz. Very energetic, very upbeat, very experimental and free. The album does not really have any sort of direction or flow, but it is fun to listen to and keeps me on the edge of my seat. At times it can seem like a battle of the bands between the two saxophonists, and at others they synergize well; I prefer the latter. A great showcase of talent here and it is good to hear something so experimental.
Me ha parecido un flipe. Difícil, pero flipante. Nunca he escuchado el Jazz como se escucha aquí. Brutal.
It's loud, it's obnoxious and it's unsettling. But isn't that the point of jazz? John Zorn pushes the Avante Garde sound of jazz to the limits where it almost sounds like heavy metal - again, isn't that the point of jazz? To experiment? Spy vs. Spy is a great symphonic, catastrophic wall of noise that somehow flows into a very good album. 4/5.
This is an extreme musical example of the Marmite principle - and I wanted to slather it all over my morning bitterly toast, then lick the knife. Granted, you can’t listen to this all day, everyday: it’s an assault on your brain and ears which doesn’t leave you much choice other than to turn the volume firmly down then rip off the knob or jump right in and let the chaos wash over you. But. It’s chaos built on a foundation of incredible talent and musicianship. Two saxophone, two drum kits and a bass guitar all improvising and able to remain in some Free Jazz hive mind state. Most of the album is so perilously on the edge of descending and unraveling into an inaudible dirge - but they some how keep enough tension between them to keep walking along the tightrope. However there are also examples of more traditional harmonies and jazz rhythms (Ecars, Feet Music & Mob Job) to show that these are a group of musicians right at the top of thier game. And fuck me, rather this than Oasis, The Manics or The Stones. At least they won’t die wondering “What if…?”
When my mom complains that all jazz sounds made up, this is what she must be referring to. I love it
Bottled insanity. Not sure whether I like it, but I'm damn sure that it exists in the world. That someone said "how about Ornette Coleman...but hardcore?" and then executed this notion has helped me to love the human race just a little more.
Lolol!! I'm not sure what kind of mood you'd need to be in to listen to this. You couldn't need to concentrate because it takes over as a wall of sound. I guess it's interesting to listen to to spot any patterns or rhythm in the total chaos. Maybe you could use it to unwind tension or anger?? Weirdly enough there's a Radiohead track "The National Anthem" that ends like this so I guess i has influenced others?
This was a special album, chaotic jazz if I had to describe it. I liked it more then i excpected. 7/10
Veel klonk hetzelfde, maar toch weer anders. Niet 100 % mijn ding, maar wel van genoten
Well, this sure is Jazz lol. Idk why but this just sounds chaotic to me. I know that's part of what Jazz is, but holy cow. Didn't listen to the whole thing cuz it's hard for me to find, but it was good. Hard to work to though.
listening to this on youtube like the old times. what an intro lol. chaotic as fuck, which is satisfying in a way lol. i've FELT like this. the album art is really appropriate. this is pretty new to me and idk if i'll come back to it but i'm certainly not bored atm. nvm i got bored at some point. they really did not stop one second until broadway blues lol.
Noisy, not huge on it, but that's mainly a style thing rather than an objectively bad record.
so glad i’m hearing this before i die. dumb chaos kinda love it. can’t give it more than a 3 though
I couldn't access it on Spotify but had to find an incomplete Youtube Playlist. Boy, barrage indeed. I think I'd like it more if it were more noisy, ironically? If it were more of a single tonality it might create more interesting tones, but as it is there's just tooooo much going on.
This is so intense, I cannot concentrate. I respect this but I don't enjoy it. Does make me want to explore his music more though.
Couldn't find this specific album on Spotify but listened to a lot of Ornette Coleman. Great sax and stand up bass!
Nice. Not my favorite Zorn album - I would have rather seen the incredibly fun Morricone deconstruction The Big Gundown or the somber and poignant Kristallnacht on this list, or if you're going for the hyperactive cartoon jazz specifically, the first Naked City album, or the jazz/grindcore crossover, Painkiller's Guts of a Virgin. With all that being said, this is still a great Zorn album, and I'd rather have this on here than nothing at all.
Pros: - Exciting free jazz! - While listening, I didn't realize that I had another chrome tab open that had a chess streamer talking in the background at a very low volume. She was talking about pawn promotion and when the songs finished I would hear that faintly and it enhanced the experience! - If you forget to grab a coffee in the morning, just put this on. It'll wake yo ass up! - In the big scheme of abstract music / modern music / new music, this is totally palatable. Cons: - While incredibly dynamic, I would love some dynamicity (had to google that to check) in the tempi! Let's get some slow jams in there. Misc: - John Zorn is a cool wild dude. One of my regrets from when I was in music school was not going to his music venue The Stone ever- which had an arrangement with my school program where we would get reduced/free tickets and then we would get school credit for attending a modern music performance. Friends went a few times and ended up meeting him, gah! the regret! - He's definitely a modern pioneer of free jazz, and the genre is so important to popularizing the idea that any type of music can be free and untamed. I'm speculating, but a large amount of people probably find it novel and/or interesting but maybe without seeing the value beyond a single listen through. But outside of that large amount there's probably a few people that find the concept of this kind of music really intriguing and love it. For that reason alone I think it deserves a place on the list. I genuinely feel that every musician who writes music has a little bit of a duty to do something new with their music that expands music as a whole, even if they are a 99% clone of their favorite artist, if they just do 1% of something new that allows a new younger musician to make something with that 1%, then that is fulfilling a duty to the worldwide community of music. John Zorn is probably more like 75% new ideas and 25% built on the backs of people like Ornette Coleman, so John Zorn is a real one.
So THIS is “death jazz”! It’s definitely an acquired taste, but I do love trying to pick up on melodies, only to be painfully wrong every time. The chaos almost puts you in a trance, and has a calming-ish affect…? But would also be good to put on loop if you were trying to torture someone…?
A little tough to find online because it's not available on streaming but almost all of the songs are on Youtube and someone put together a playlist in tracklist order. This is so up my alley right now because I've actually been listening to a lot of Ornette Coleman recently while I write. He's an incredible jazz artist who essentially invented free jazz, where you deliberately play atonal notes and sometimes ignore the melody all together. (The album of his I've listened to the most is "Change of the Century" and it's a good intro to the style because it's mostly melodic jazz with some experimental stuff in the improvisations.) I think it's so cool that someone drew a line between free jazz and hardcore punk. I remember listening to the title track on "Change of the Century" and thinking, "This is crazy. This has such a punk rock attitude.” It still sounds wild in 2022 and must have been truly nuts in the late 1950's. But a lot of the songs that John Zorn and his band cover on this album are already so fast and chaotic that playing them even faster and louder and more chaotic turns them into more of an experimental curiosity than anything I'd actually want to listen to for fun. You have to be in the mood to be musically assaulted. Still, some songs really worked for me. "Good Old Days" has blasts of pure noise but breathes enough that you can follow the structure. (It was also one of the only songs I knew going into this so it was cool to hear.) "The Disguise," "Blues Connotation," "Ecars," and "Broadway Blues" stood out to me too. (Also, having two drummers is such a crazy, cool thing to do. I love that.)
A song or two of this is good. You know, 3 to 5 minutes or so. But a whole album? The problem with free jazz is that because there is no structure, every song starts to run together. There is no contrast. By the time any song sounded different, I was about 20 minutes into the album. That's a problem. It's just... all over the place. Not something I need to revisit.
You know what this isn't that bad once you lean into it. Not on Spootify but there's some good youtube playlists with the full album, and making it to the end is definitely an achievement. Kinda like reading Ulysses, but with more squonking.
I didn’t think I’d like this but it was good. Very jazzy but better than I’d anticipated.
Interesting but not very listenable, though I enjoyed a few tracks. This definitely doesn't belong near the bottom of the global rankings. 6/10
6/10. I was expecting much worse for one of the lowest rated albums on the list. I liked it overall, but it is definitely a bit too frantic to comfortably listen to in the background, and I am not really one for actively listening to stuff without lyrics, so there's not really a good niche for listening to this, but it wasn't bad.
Very surprising, it’s like they’re an instrumental jazz Slayer cover band. The 2x Sax and 2x drummers appear to be racing to finish the song first
Crazy, and a great, more contemporary example of jazz fusion, but a bit rough to listen to
It’s like if porno music was angry while high on crack cocaine. Oddly enough, I’m kinda about it.