Rattlesnakes

Thanks to this album, Wikipedia and a helpful friend, I am now aware of the existence of the genre "sophisti-pop", which I can now avoid for the remainder of my life

Not bad but I'm kinda pissed because this took a spot on the list away from so many albums that are much better than this. It's not even like this is revolutionary or different in one way or another, it just sounds like every other generic British alt-rock/pop/sadboi album in the 80s-90s and I'm starting to get sick of how many of these are on the list. 5

This album had 2 problems. First, it was boring. It felt like an hour long album, even though it was 35 minutes long. Second, It felt empty. Every song felt like it was missing something and that it was the most bare-bones version of the song. Heck, even the cover looks like it's missing something. 2.6/5

Another Scottish band from the 80s (that makes three in a row). Lloyd and his boys have a touch more punk to their 80s pop which is nice. It's relatively non-offensive musically for an album from '84. Good guitar tones and the lyrics are relatively deep for the time. The first track (Perfect Skin) is pretty good (turns out it was the band's very first single and well-chosen). This is an entire album of songs that would be great as modern covers, honestly. The songwriting is good, just hampered by it being a product of its time. I'm honestly surprised by how much I liked this album. Gonna have to give this one a second listen at a later date.

I liked it! Feels a bit like Pulp, for people that read poetry.

I had never heard of this band, and I was surprised to find that I really dug this album! If I had to describe it, I would say it's like an easy listening, folky new wave. In other words, it has that new wave strangeness about it, but a lot of the heaviness of new wave is tenderized with that folk sound. One thing that can happen with folky music is that everything can sort of blend into one mess of sound, but I did not feel like that was the case here; each song stood on its own and had its own unique presence. Bob Dylan seems to have been a huge influence for Lloyd Cole, and considering I am not a fan of Dylan, I was very pleased to find that Cole and the band found a way to take that inspiration and create something fresh with it. I've seen some debate about whether or not this album deserves to be on this list. Maybe, maybe not -- I can see arguments for both. But either way, I really enjoyed it, and I'm going to let my rating reflect that.

Eh? Not my style. It was fine, but I'd never consider it a top 1000 album.

hey lloyd, i'm ready to be heartbroken fav track: perfect skin

One word Wednesday: BORING

Some decent tunes. But ultimately nothing special. Surprised it made the list.

I think from the moment "Perfect Skin" concluded I wasn't going to enjoy this record. As always, I finish each record on this, and this isn't any different. That time gave me a chance to distill what I didn't like about this record. This record sounds like it's full of songs that are destined to be TV theme songs (see: the "Friends" intro song). Lloyd Cole attempts a voice that I can only assume was supposed to be "seductive", but manages to be able as "seductive" as wallpaper paste. Lyrically, there are plenty of lyrics that felt like he went with the first idea that came to head and called it "good enough". When I was on the Wikipedia page for this record, the first thing you see is a quote from Lloyd Cole essentially insinuating that "Perfect Skin" is him trying to be Bob Dylan, and hinting that, "Dylan would've written it quicker". I'm not even a huge fan of Dylan, and I'm insulted on his behalf. I normally end each review with a "Favorite tracks", but gracefully all of these have slipped out of my mind. It's somewhere between yacht-ish yuppie rock, and the type of watered-down, corporate blues that Clapton was making in the 80s. No. No. Absolutely not.

Masterpiece. Love his voice, though at times he does waver at the top of his minimal range. Own and only ever listened to "Mainstream"; now wondering why I never looked for any of his other albums. What a dummy. Fav tracks: "Forest Fire" - super catchy. "Speedboat" - soothing and just downright fun. Least fav: "Four Flights Up". But is on 2.5 mins, so goes fast. A-

Literate, clever ("Must you tell me all your secrets when it's hard enough to love you knowing nothing?") and excellent, this is a hallmark of early '80s indie rock or alt pop or post-new wave or something. One can make a case he was a kinder, gentler (or better read and educated) Elvis Costello, but this and next few records had a lot to offer, even if he never seemed quite cut out for music biz. An all-time personal favorite, though one can see the flaws (perhaps too many name-droppy preferences and pretty muddy production). The tone and tenor and surfeit of great songs – "Perfect Skin," "Forest Fire" and "Patience" "Are Your Ready to Be Heartbroken" and "Rattlesnakes" – more than compensate. Barely a foot wrong here.

If you told me to close my eyes and fart out a generic 80s indie pop album, I would produce this album exactly. Maybe I’m hating more on the form or the era more than the artist, but this slow 80s synth pop just bores me to tears. 2 stars because you have to be doing something right to fit perfectly into a stereotype. Wish I could appreciate them more, but the music seems to be giving me very little to work with. The last song was okay

I don’t hate the music, I just hate this album for existing and taking up a spot on the list that should have gone to Silent Alarm by Bloc Party

Absolute classic of an album. I've still got the vinyl copy I bought on release.

I have loved this album ever since it slid into my consciousness as a teenager. As one of the other reviews here says - like swimming in autumn. Beautiful

Still beautiful after all these years.

Actually a fantastic album. Super well articulated musically, great lyrics, and an original feel. Big fan.

false

i reallyyyyy liked listening to this album, especially 'down on mission street'. and the lyrics made it better to listen to i mean if i heard someone say 'cheekbones like geometry and eyes like sin', let alone all of these songs, in reference to me i think i'd need a good lie down. the flirty nature of these songs make me feel warm inside. it's just the classic boy loves girl and writes songs about her story that is being told throughout this whole album that adds the extra edge ahhh i just cant emphasise it, maybe it's the feeling of summer dawning upon me is making me feel like this

New to me but I enjoyed it!

Wow. Really enjoyed this album. Great playing, hyper literare lyrics that imopress even on first listen. Lots of lyrical turns that jump out. Lloyd is a gifted story teller and his characters are really well drawn. But the songs are the thing and they are all gems. 4 stars

This is what I like about this malarkey. I like what I know of Lloyd Cole but have never had the occasion to listen to an album. This forces me to do it, and it's great. Will definitely come back to it. The Sea and the Sand and the other singles edges out by Perfect Skin as best song.

I always thought Lloyd Cole a little too clever, a little too knowing for my tastes. I could just about get my head around a Smiths album, but Lloyd Cole to my young mind was a bit of a Bob Dylan. I'm pleased to be proven wrong. My personal intelligence hasn't advanced much over the years. But I've come to realise that you should approach music at a basic level. If you like it, then you like it. I like this.

Rattlesnakes on the surface is a bit of an unremarkable album, I was initially confused (as are many reviewers) why this would make the list at all. Despite some great guitar tones and playing, notably on Forest Fire. the whole thing just passes by as a little bit anonymous. But as I often do I scanned back through some of the tracks afterwards and started noticing that parts of it sound remarkably like pavements 'Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain' which didn't come out for another 10 years. Parts of it also sound a bit more new wave or smiths brand goth pop. So it seems to occupy a space within the indie music cannon where its looking backwards and forwards, bridging the gap between older, more heavily textured precursors to modern indie and the brand of jangly cynicism we have had since the 90's. Unfortunately the interest only carries it so far and I still think its ultimately a pretty mediocre album. A solid 3, and I think a good candidate for dropping off the list in later revisions unfortunately.

I think I liked it? I didn't hate it. I have a soft spot for that 80s synth pop vibe, but I don't have a strong opinion on this one. It's better than 40% of the albums that I have been dished up recently. I wouldn't buy it. Does a series of brief statements count as a review? Does a series of banal tunes count as an album? Three stars.

Boring.

Mostly uninspiring 80s UK pop with jangly guitars, pretentious lyrics, and lame emo singing. That there still somehow, mercifully manages to be a couple of semi-decent songs on this is a minor miracle.

Didnt really like this one either. There was sometimes this sound to british pop vocals of that era that I didnt like. Almost sounded like they were trying to sing without any bass in their voice or something. Just was kinda boring and uninspired to me.

There's nothing wrong with this album per se, but I just don't really dig it. I remember Perfect Skin getting played on the radio when it was released, and I thought it was OK then, and it's still OK. The production is pretty good for an 80s indie-style release. His voice is nothing to write home about, and I find it a bit mannered and thin. He has a lot of trouble with the high notes. His song writing is intelligent (and pretentious), melodic (but not super memorable), and tuneful (even if his voice is weak). He fits within the tradition of your Dylan and (more obviously) Leonard Cohen. I keep thinking "he's like a less compelling version of Nick Cave/Greg Dulli/Jarvis Cocker/insert name here", except for the fact that this album pre-dates most of those artists (at least, when they were working in this vein). Most of them don't really start this type of songwriting until the late 80s or 90s. The contemporary of Lloyd Cole that immediately springs to my mind is David McComb of The Triffids, whose songwriting is much more musically and lyrically compelling (IMHO). I just checked my record collection, and I own a copy of this record. I don't recall _ever_ have played it. I was having a beer with some mates last week, and a few of them mentioned that they were going to see Lloyd Cole when he tours Australia soon, so he clearly means a lot to some of my contemporaries. But I have no desire to sit through a show by Mr Cole. Again, there's nothing _wrong_ with it, but there is just some spark missing. 2.5 stars, rounding down

This was a fine record, but the problem with this list being so focused on British music is that there are records that get ignored, which I think might capture a similar type of music a little more interestingly, enjoyably and with a more palpable sense of of urgency to the music. Namely, “The Good Earth” by The Feelies or “The Days of Wine and Roses” by The Dream Syndicate. You’re welcome. Seriously, The Feelies are so good.

So “Rattlesnakes” by Lloyd Cole isn’t exactly my cup of tea, but at least he’s got a fairly original sound, and I thought this album was fairly well-done… Pretty decent diversity throughout the tracks, and the musicianship is solid… Not the greatest vocals or lyrics in the world, but certainly serviceable for sure… Most tracks were just fine with me, and while there were a couple that I really didn’t enjoy, there were a couple that I did… Best tracks on the album IMO were “Speedboat”, and the closing track “Are You Ready To Be Heartbroken?”… Not sure why this is on the 1,001, but better than many that I have listened to so far, and a solid 2 for me…

Really dull album. Tunes sounded like cheap imitations of other artists. Glad I didn't listen to the version with the b-sides.

Boring and Forgettable, Honestly no Idea why this is even in this List

It definitely has some 80s feel to it. I had never heard of this band before and I am fine with that. I didn't care for it but I didn't skip any songs. No need to revisit. It is better than a one but I am rounding down.

"I might come to a conclusion other than that which is absolutely necessary" and yet it's one that I want to utter in the same annoying, hackneyed and ultimately boring 'conversational' tone as the one Lloyd Cole uses in the opener of this record, and this conclusion is that blabbering each and every thought that pops out of your mind in an overaffected and histrionic drawl just because you are aroused by some girl who is herself "sexually enlightened by Cosmopolitan" doesn't automatically make said thoughts interesting or revelatory for most listeners--especially when the music over which you sing those banal thoughts is so bland, predictable and "middle-of-the-road" itself, not to mention produced with a blatant disregard for dynamics that could at least make up for how unoriginal the same music is, i.e. never as interesting as the one Johnny Marr wrote for the Smiths for instance, a good reference point to state how Lloyd Cole himself piles up misfires after misfires as a frontman, vocalist and lyricist compared to, say, Morrissey, another "histrionic" singer for sure, yet one whose eighties recordings can still mesmerize listeners today--contrary to Lloyd Cole, whose own "overkill" mode sounds like a total act and not something that comes out of his heart--and that's not even taking into account the frequent odd meters in his lyrics, as established earlier, suggesting that the man was so pretentious and full of himself that he thought each and every word he wrote should be uttered on a bar not fit to receive all of them, whereas just changing the phrasing or the choice of words could have been a more elegant solution, especially when said words often don't express anything precise or cohesive anyway, and when the way they are sung doesn't save them either--when the mannerisms and the pretense just ruin the few things that could have been salvaged on a musical standpoint--and if you feel like it's exhausting to read this long-ass paragraph complaining about *Rattlesnakes*, just imagine how utterly exhausting it was for me to listen to this dated and flat music for 50 minutes straight, which felt like two hours, honestly: all of this explains why Lloyd Cole doesn't "need my sympathy", and why "I wont read [his] poetry", to use the man's own words in "Charlotte Street", one of the rare cuts in this record that's *slightly* memorable, but which, very ironically, might just betray the fact that Lloyd Cole And The Commotions were themselves aware they could easily pass off as total bores for a lot of listeners not necessarily inclined to put up with the self-indulgence of their "sophistipop", an overall style from the dreadful eighties that was so awkward AND pretentious that it should probably be left in the dustbins of music history today, a few decades later, as competent and even "skilled" as the players are on this record (like that string section in the title-track, or in "Down On Mission Street", for instance--songs that are still listenable I guess, but more for their lush arrangements but for the compositions per se), because--let's face it--at the end of the day, bad taste is bad taste, no matter how good you are as a musician and a composer ; and sophistipop, often favoring style over substance, often made things worse in that regard, and if you add those odd meters and cruelly self-conscious lyrics, the whole thing becomes unbearable, once again, which is why with their jangle-pop energy played in the same early years of the eighties, the Smiths or REM could still improve such an initial "histrionic" formula at least, and this in ways Lloyd Cole And The Commotions never even seemed to consider for one second (except from that frankly awesome amplified guitar solo at the end of *Forest Fire*, admittedly, but once again it's another case of a great last-minute flourish in a song that doesn't show much in terms of hrilling elements elsewhere), and so all those missed occasions to write and perform something genuinely *good* probably explains why the record drags on and on with no precise destination in mind, just like this review, but also like a lot of the individual songs in the album, which often end on an unresolved note, especially on its second side--unresolved notes not even giving a somewhat mysterious undertone to the proceeding, only an "indifferent" one, just like a dead-eyed stare worthy of the one a dead-brained zombie could send you back right before you shoot its face off just to come out of this unfortunate encounter alive, and then forget about the whole thing just for the sake of mental self-preservation. Blah. Hated this record. Hope you can picture the reasons why I did by now. But if not, it's not even an issue for me, very honestly. And I rarely say that. So, next, please. 1/5 for the goals of this list, i.e. listing 1001 "essential albums" for me. Which translates to a 6/10 grade for more general (and maybe more "objective") reasons. (5 for competent playing + 1 for a couple of memorable moments pestered by an utter lack of taste and/or compelling dynamics). Number of albums left to review: 293 Number of albums from the list I find relevant enough to be mandatory listens: 311 Albums from the list I *might* include in mine later on: 169 Albums from the list I won't include in mine (many other records are more important to me): 230 (including this one)

Pleasantly surprised by this important Brit pop that was new to me. I liked it

Really loved this one, how come I’ve never heard about this new wave band before?

Pretty great. Sometimes sounds like Depeche Mode, maybe lighter

I have never heard of this band but I really liked this album

Big big fan of this. Didn't really like it all that much the first time, so just goes to show how important a second or third listen is for a lot of these albums. The first 5 I'm giving to an album I didn't already know Saved: Speedboat, Rattlesnakes, Down on Mission Street, 2cv, Are You Ready To Be Heartbroken?

First time since starting this that I have listened to an album, and then immediately listened to another by the same act. Loved this.

I love Brit pop. This was a little more on the indie side

80s as heck. I enjoyed my listen, upbeat and interesting enough to keep me going no problem. Instrumentation surprisingly good too.

really fun 80s rock - 9/10

Great album

It sounds so modern for a 1984 album and so "American" for an British group. I wouldn't be so overly positive if it came out in the 21st century. Very "before their times" music.

Will definitely re-listen

Intriguing. I’m not a massive fan of his tone but everything thing else is working for me. I feel like this definitely deserves further listening so I’m giving a soft 5 to keep it in from getting lost amongst the other 4s

cool

Wow, never even heard of this, but it's a gem. Good indie music is sort of balancing act. It's sad but uplifting. It makes arty references, but it's ultimately a collection of nice little love stories. It's wryly cynical, but earnestly vulnerable. It's catchy and carefully crafted, but it still sounds like it was written in a basement underneath a golf club (as this apparently was). Everything strikes the right balance here. Love it. Also, I've now realised the Camera Obscura song "Lloyd, I'm Ready To Be Heartbroken" is a reference to the closing track of this album (which is the highlight of the album). 4.5* because it's great, but it's missing that nameless little mysterious ingredient that will make me always love Camera Obscura more than this.

A nice slice of 80s indie.

- The vocals are very 80s, but the sound production carry a somewhat country/folk soundscape on the guitars specially. - I had never head anything about this band before. Cool discovery.

This album is a cross between new wave, college rock, and folk. It features jangly guitar but still retains a blues and funk core. Lyrically, it is very literate and make references to literature (especially New Journalism and philosophy). Musically, it is highly melodic which is often reinforced or echoed in the instrumentation. The guitar outlines the chords and along with the strings, achieves a full sound. The bass is prominent as is typical of new wave/post-punk. Its folky elements are reminiscent of the Byrds, Bob Dylan, and the early/mid career Beatles. I can hear a lot of this album in modern indie folk and indie rock, especially the reinforced melodies.

Not really my thing personally, but not bad!

Great album that ends super strongly. I know nothing about these guys, but they sound like a dusty version of Prefab Sprout, I kept thinking of Steve McQueen when listening to this

This has been a very pleasant unexpected surprise. Great voice and the music is almost symphonic. Very clean sound. Love it!

Nice

I thought this was great. The name of the album is a winner to start. I thought there were a lot of good songs, some great hooks, lots of likes on this one.

Absolutely brilliant

I like this. They're like, we're gonna go express ourselves in the corner over here. You're welcome to listen if you want to but you don't have to.

What a mystically pleasant jangle-pop record, fully served with all its quirks and 80s cheese. The music feels exaggerated, allowing for the painting of these sonically descriptive images of the songs' settings and general aesthetics. The sonic palette here is impossibly diverse and strikingly sharp and hooky (just listen to the guitar melody on 'Charlotte Street'). I can't express just how colorful and bright, yet nocturnal, melancholic, and longing it all sounds, especially the closer 'Are You Ready to Be Heartbroken?'. I love the very diverse groove on the song 'Speedboat' that continues to surprise and build throughout its 4-and-a-half-minute runtime. Lyrically and vocally, it's as charming as it needs to be to fully capitalize on the bewildering nature of the music here. There's something so present about the way Lloyd Cole depicts love, but also it seems the person he talks about is distant and long gone. This subtle contradiction of emotions plays a big part in reinforcing this album's bizarre thematic approach to intimacy. Cole's also consistently witty and unique in his lyricism. This is just perfect pop music, everything sounds so "maximum" - as it should be. That's all that needs to be said, i really loved this one.

Hidden gem! This is an unexpected surprise! I like it quite a lot, going to give it a few revolutions so it can really seep into my soul. This is the kind of listless yet brooding indie stuff that rocks my world. I love it. The more I listen, the more I love it. This is an excellent new discovery for me.

That was a nice discovery - I really enjoyed that. It sounds to me like Indie should sound like.

Own this, seen these live, Brixton Academy, so long ago it's unbelievable. Great album.

I ended up listening to this five times while I cleaned my turtle tank yesterday. Going to add to the permanent collection I really enjoyed it

Every one of their albums is a winner!! They are still touring, great band!

Literate high grade '80s pop. Twinges of the sound of the era, a kind of white boy should that pervaded a lot of post new wave. Muture beyond its years and a timeless classic As an aside I had an acquaintance describe the as The Smiths for people who drink and have sex

This is the sort of album that if I'd known about it at the time, would have been something that I'd have listened to over and over. I quite enjoyed this and Lloyd Cole's voice.

I have to admit, this is a pretty random album to end up on a list of 1001 albums you must hear before you die, but I enjoyed it nonetheless. It’s classic 80s jangle pop. If you’re into early R.E.M. or bands like The Smiths, this is definitely an album worth checking out.

This is amazing. I love the musicality of this album. The production does have an 80's vibe but not in the synth way that I usually think of 80's music. I will be listening to this again for sure.

Quite indie sound. Like Speedboat and 2cv

Don't remember this from the 80's. but it's really good.

Like the cure but without Robert Smith

First time I've heard of this band! I like it.

Enjoyed this very much. Bouncy upbeat feel to it. 80s U.K. vibes done well. Down on Mission Street is amazing.

I was prepared to hate this, but it's not bad. Sounds like Lou Reed covering the proclaimers. The cool instrumentation (backwards guitars? strings?) keep things more interesting than I was expecting.

One of those serious, elegant, stylish beautiful pop records which transcends time but all the same time is a product of its era

A couple of years ago, I pulled this LP out of my vinyl collection, played it and remember thinking it wasn't as good as I'd remembered it, but, after a more focused listen, I disagree. Nicely crafted songs, subtle but catchy, with great lyrics full of literary references for arty types. As is often the case, the 4 bonus tracks (not on vinyl) lower the average quality of the tracks.

Pretty enjoyable. Got a nice sound, but might be nice if they had more than the one of them. Low 8.

7

Toffe plaat, deed me vaak denken aan The Smiths. Kan dit wel waarderen.

Saved Prior: Are You Ready To Be Heartbroken? Saved Off Rip: Perfect Skin, Speedboat, Rattlesnakes, Forest Fire, Charlotte Street, Four Flights Up Cutting Edge: None Overall Notes: No bad songs, but nothing earth-shattering either. Just a nice collection of 80's alt-pop. Close to a 5 due to sheer number of songs saved, but not that many songs I would really call incredible 10/10 songs so it stays a 4.

Very lighthearted and fun album. Nothing genious, but very happy, music that takes you along for the easygoing vibe. Improved my mood immensely.

I think there's more here that I could be into on a second listen.

противоречиво. вообще сначала почти все не заходило, пока слушал за работой на колонках. потом решил прокатиться в метро в наушниках - ну и словил определённый вайб все-таки. мягкие аранжировки, очень классные струны, неплохие хуки время от времени, харизматичный, хотя и немного нытливый вокалер. алсо, этот вокалист мне подарил ощущение какого-то русского поп-рока по типу песни про то что кто-то брат мог бы играть в разведке и служить в кино. но не сказать, что плохая песня-то. не зашли по итогу только две предпоследние песни, даже как будто сведены хуже и немного слух поцарапали. зато финалочка - балдеж, даже несмотря на противные аффинажеские мотивы, что я в ней уловил. из бонус-песен тоже ничего не цепануло. ну 7,че, можно вечерком погулять под это, если настроение располагает

half way, not my sound. Sounded good for what i heard

Oh damn! Hade ingen aning om vad detta var. Är jag ärlig med mig själv så visste jag inte om Rattlesnakes var bandets eller albumets namn när jag öppnade upp spotify. Men det är ett riktigt härligt sound, med mycket små riffs från en lätt gitarr. Jag tycker sångarens röst påminner lite om Simple Minds men också på något litet plan Morriseys röst, även fast den inte är lika bra som hans så ger det ett ändå ett positivt avtryck. Detta kommer lyssnas vidare på! Bäst: "Rattlesnakes"

Reminded me of like 4 different bands smashed together. Not in a terrible way, I still enjoyed the music.

I love this genre. That 80s UK New Wave. While there are lots of bands that fit this genre, ironically this album sounds more like The Cars, an American band! Perfect Skin is a poppy, fun, introduction to the album. Speedboat is a great groove. I can see this song being a real fun part of a live show towards the end of the show or just a break from an upbeat set in the middle! I see Lloyd Cole cites Booker T and MGs as an influence, and I completely see that influence in songs like Speedboat and .

This album is like swimming in the early autumn when the weather is still warm and the water is just beginning to cool. It’s a mellow and calm experience, but you don’t want to stay in too long.

Never heard of them before but a pleasant surprise. Smiths/Cure vibes

Good classic 70s vibes, I really enjoy the instrumentation and the style it was going for. Sounded generic and not very unique, but I enjoyed it nonetheless

While this album does have a tendency toward the pretentious, it still sounds really good. There's not a lot that stands out, but all of the tracks are really solid. That is no small feat considering the diversity in songwriting and the amount of different influences blended into coherent songs.

Not what you might think.

Pop. Very defining of that era.

I little more my style.

Love this. Very much of its time, but still a great pop record.

This album was an interesting listen; I'd never heard of Lloyd Cole and The Commotions prior to this, but the music sounded familiar in that it was redolent of the jangly guitars, tuneful melodies and simple song structures peppered with the occasional strings or organ sounds. It made me think of indie rock bands like Real Estate and The War On Drugs, amongst others. Rattlesnake was an enjoyable journey, with songs like Patience that garnered repeated listens with its 80s-pop-esque drum sounds and catchy melody. Tracks like Perfect Skin featured the jangly guitars and exuberance that has since become a mainstay of many an indie pop band while others like Down On Mission Street explore a darker sound that sounds like a Robyn feature on a War On Drugs song. For its seeming simplicity, this album is chock-full of tasty bits of musicianship, like the tiny time signature changes, textural keys and what sounds like a banjo in the opening track. Lloyd Cole could very well sneak into any indie playlist undetected, and is a testament to the fact that its all been done before; one need but dig back a little further.