The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady

#3 I like to think of music as a language. And jazz is an ultimate form of conversation. It is not always intended for the outsiders. Just a group of friends (and versatile speakers, too) enjoying each other's company. Sometimes you can't understand what they're talking about anymore. But if you've been listening from the beginning, you understand how they got there. One can't deny - it's a beautiful act.

It's been a strange weekend, so I've only had the opportunity to enjoy this at the back of my mind. So it is no surprise that I've got no closer to distinguishing good jazz from bad. I'm still not sure I know why I like one jazz record over another. In our recent Duke Ellington review, I mentioned that it was hard to hear big band jazz as anything other than a Time Machine. Whereas the self-expression of later jazz puts it in parallel to post-Dylan-and-Beatles pop - it is in the same artistic world in a very broad sense. Thus, while Mingus and his players sound a lot like big band, they also sound wild and free. There is some goal other than making you dance, if one could even dance to this. But, like the big band sound, the music here can be a sort of Time Machine. Certainly, many parts of the record take you back to 40s noir and may as well be in a spy movie. Or further back to some 20s speakeasy. It is only the shonkiness, the occasional falter or tuneless parp, the sections of pure noise that take you away from the cliched cinematic image to an image of people playing in a room. But exactly they're playing and why, I'm not really sure. I suppose the ragged edges make this seem more alive than Duke and his band, but I don't see that it is doing much more. 2.5 I used to quite like this and among that pile of Jazz CDs in the attic that catalogues my failure to spark with the genre this is, alongside Bitches Brew, the one I returned to the most. For radically different reasons to Bitches Brew obviously. Black Saint… is much easier listening but still has enough musical eccentricity in it to flatter the listener that they are digesting something avant garde. And that was the very sort of flattery I had a taste for when I was young. Listening now, and it has been a long time since I have listened, it is clear to me that Charles Mingus’ ‘masterpiece’ is, in truth, entirely quaint. Perhaps this had some teeth in 1963, when you could still find swing records beneath your da’s gramophone. But sixty years on it is harder to credit Mingus’ spin on Big Band as much spin at all. The scribbles and slashes on the surface sound as dated as the maudlin themes underneath. Even the ‘free’ bits sound, somehow, sentimental. The muted trumpets sound silly. There’s just no effective darkness here at all and there ought to be because presenting this music - rhythmically insistent and rich with ostinatos, dissonant, squawking - as a ‘ballet’, Mingus must have been thinking on some level about Rite of Spring. Rite of Spring is half a century older again than Black Saint… and it’s still plenty dark, still challenging, still potent. And none of it sounds like The Stripper. 2

Artistry.

Full on. That space of 50's+60's jazz meets Bob Fosse. Intense at the end. Not for the faint hearted.

Nope, don’t get it. And, I tried. Man, I really tried. Maybe you need the ballet dancers for it to make sense. Some reviewers comment on the flamenco guitar. But, they just appear and go away, the composition doesn’t pick up on anything the guitar was doing. Maybe a snare grabs it for awhile in mode D or maybe E. I really couldn’t tell when a theme was finished. In fact, the first time my ear went “now, that’s interesting”. Spotify had finished the album and started playing Peace by Ornette Coleman

i'm such a fool for underestimating his hype

5/10

Absolutely blown away by tracks 3 & 4

RATING: 9/10 HIGHLIGHT: Duet Solo Dancers LOWLIGHT: Group Dancers

Not a big jazz guy, but damn this is good.

me at the concept of jazz: 🤩🔥🥰 me when it comes to actually listening to it: 🫩😩🙉

1.9 - the main theme of the whole album was very groovy and I wanna like it.. but just too free form. And a majority of duration seems like just noise to me personally.

Ikke noget for mig

#263 I can't comprehend jazz, much in the same way I cannot with classical music. Two different beasts, neither for the casual listener. I like to think I am more than a casual listener but I definitely do not have the capacity to enjoy the nuances or speak jazz. I have no idea what I am listening to, I just know I like parts of it, and thats enough for me.

absolute vibe, especially on a gloomy morning

I don’t get jazz

This is the sort of music that I like and admire, but it doesn't really speak to me enough to get full marks.

not my cup of tea

Avant Garde jazz shows up to the party. Uninvited. JUST KIDDING I love jazz, and even I find this progressive opus difficult. It's confrontational and intellectual. It doesn't seem like there is a big audience for Mingus' oddball vision, even in the post-bop era, a time when Jazz was pretty popular, with a lot of mainstream acceptance. Mingus puishes the limits. I always thought his stuff was pretty academic.

I need to listen to this when I am high. Charles Mingus is one of the giants of Jazz with Miles Davis, John Coltrane and Herbie Hancock. This was composed as a ballet I would like to see this produced. Love the random Flamenco guitar. Very cool!

OK jazz

The best jazz album of all time?

I am not much of a jazz fan, but boy is this album good!!!!!! It is not that I dislike jazz, I usually just find it good/fine, but this album is exceptionally good. I love all the unique instruments like the flamenco guitar, and this album has such a great climax!!! Amazing album, I really need to listen to it more!!! High 5!!!!!!!!

Very nice album will need a proper revisit when i’m more in the mood!

I'll always love jazz, but this isn't anyhting special

I tend to like jazz but I never really have any intention of listening on my own. These are wonderful compositions that I may or not revisit. Probably not, though. The one I do enjoy about jazz albums, is that they tend to make these supergroups of amazing musicians. I like to check who is playing on the record on Wikipedia. I'm no jazz nerd but I know some names or three.

Enjoyment: 6/10 Replayability: 8/10 Cohesion: 7/10 Flow/Pacing: 7/10 Artistic Merit: 5/10 Weighted Average: 6.6/10 Review: A solid jazz album that musically conveys a tragic love story. I respect the choice of including the spanish guitar for flair between the horn section. Overall, a good listen. Liked Song(s): (None) Disliked Song(s): (None) Recommend? Maybe Heard Before? No

I love jazz... but this to me sounds like a 1-man band with parkinsons, sorry.

Was apprehensive going into this one but was better than i was expecting. last song was a highlight. Much better than some of the jazz on this list. A bit more relaxed than i was expecting.

Якраз вчора слухав. Класний альбом, мені сподобався.

This is funky as hell. Idk if I like it. Ok jazzy as hell. This is weird. He's minging it up. He's getting funky as hell. Idk. Kinda just here. Unremarkable. Favourite: Track B Least favourite: Track A

#279/1001 🇺🇸 Mixed feelings here. It obviously features some amazing playing but i found the final track quite annoying. Best Track: Track B.

I took one trimester of jazz band in high school, so I think I know my stuff here. This is exceptional. Don't ask me why, but it is. Very glad I was exposed to this. It's not something I'll keep in my rotation, but the big band musicianship is elite.

i never know if i like jazz or not because every jazz album i listen to is so different! but i really really liked this - moody and layered and strange.

Relaxed jazz

seems very high concept for its time

A very good Jazz album, but not my style. I prefer rock things and I’ll go make my reviews in that position so. I believe if I get into jazz and listen some times more, the album will be very good. For now 5 out of 10

Jazz was always a genre I was interested in, but never explored. This album was a taste of what I've been missing out on - at times, angry, visceral; other moments were soft, tender. I know next to nothing about Charles Mingus, and I still felt what he was saying through his music. You don't need to know the history of jazz to feel it in your heart and soul. You just need to be open to it.

The first jazz album on here that I've enjoyed. It's up tempo enough to not be laborious.

pretty nice jazz album. one of two i had listened to before this list, and i liked it then; still like it now

Alright, I'm probably in the wrong for this one but I've just never been able to understand why this one is so particularly acclaimed. I mean, if people like it and it speaks to them then obviously that's wonderful, but every time I've ever thought about putting this record on again, I'd rather go listen to '65-'66 Coltrane to get an avant-garde jazz fix. I know that's sort of like comparing apples to oranges but I feel that way sincerely. I need to give some of Mingus's other works a try and then maybe cycle back around to this one. I still don't quite get it.

The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady Charles Mingus 1963 Genres: Jazz 1. Track A - Solo Dancer (Stop! Look! and Listen, Sinner Jim Whitney!) (★★★★★) -Contexto: Abre con tono grave y teatral. El título es una interpelación directa a alguien llamado "Sinner Jim Whitney"; no hay explicación documentada de quién es, así que no la invento. Funciona como presentación del "baile" y del dramatismo del disco. 2. Track B - Duet Solo Dancers (Hearts' Beat and Shades in Physical Embraces) (★★★★★) -Contexto: Pieza más íntima y sensual, pensada como un dúo. El título sugiere cercanía física y emocional; el clima es más cálido y quebrado que el de la primera. 3. Track C - Group Dancers ((Soul Fusion) Freewoman and Oh, This Freedom's Slave Cries) (★★★★★) -Contexto: Es la de colores más españoles (guitarra de Jay Berliner), con contraste entre libertad y opresión en el título. Es una lectura del título y del sonido, no una explicación del propio Mingus. -Fav -Frisson 4. Medley: Mode D + Mode E + Mode F (★★★★★) -Contexto: Pista larga (~18 min) que funde tres movimientos, en una progresión de revuelta, fiesta y despedida según los títulos. · Mode D, Trio and Group Dancers (Stop! Look! and Sing Songs of Revolutions!): consigna de revuelta, tono más agitado y colectivo. · Mode E, Single Solos and Group Dance (Saint and Sinner Join in Merriment on Battle Front): alegría y conflicto juntos, con solos individuales sobre base grupal. · Mode F, Group and Solo Dance (Of Love, Pain and Passioned Revolt, Then Farewell, My Beloved, 'til It's Freedom Day): cierre con despedida, desenlace emocional de toda la obra. -Fav -TOTAL = ★★★★★ (5) -Creía que no me gustaba el jazz, pero la verdad que incluído este, ya van dos que marco con 5 estrellas.

Great album, I'd never heard this before.

I’ve never heard of Charles Mingus before despite being an enjoyer of jazz. I assumed he was the trumpet or bari sax, because they absolutely did the brass instrument version of shredding (blowing? dooting?) on this album. Then I found out he’s the bass player, and I didn’t really notice the bass all that much. It’s a very solid jazz album overall. I appreciate the instrumentalist’s performances and it’s a top notch foray of experimental jazz.

constant motion

RELEASE ME FROM THE JAZZ DIMENSION

Fuck byeaaaaaah

Christ, this is a masterpiece. I feel like I'm a private dick, sleuthing about a city cloaked in chaos. Love it, exceptional from beginning to end.

There's literally no point me listening to jazz. It's so samey. The emperor's new clothes

Landmark avant-garde jazz album with easy to follow motifs and wild interludes, what's not to like? Not my favorite style, but seriously brilliant stuff. Rating: strong 8/10 (5 here because you haters tanked the rating)

6.5/10 I'll freely admit I'm not sophisticated enough to understand jazz, but this one I enjoyed more than most jazz albums on this list so far

I don't have a jazz background and I feel like I have been giving the jazz in this list scores that are too high because it is out of my usual wheelhouse, but this ruled. Moody, expressive, dark, and quite beautiful in places.

Such dramatic and energetic transitions between dynamics, style, timbre. I enjoyed the classical guitar and the sheer tidal wave of sound that this album produces, even if I might only reach for it in very specific moods.

While I enjoyed this album as background music, I do believe I should give it a more focused listen. With its textures of popular jazz motifs riddled throughout this album proves to be a cohesive collection of music interplaying with grace and harmony.

Джаз сложно слушать просто в наушниках, не для того эта музыка

Was some fun jazz and entertaining to listen to, but not my favorite so far regarding jazz albums.

I’m not a huge fan of jazz in general, but I like this. It’s a lot darker and sinister than most other jazz I’ve ever heard. What does that say about me?

Not my favourite album. Some good jazz moments

Jazz, for Jazz lovers.

This is some decent jazz, my friend...

I really like Mingus Ah Um and had this album on my list of things to listen to, but I did not enjoy it as much as Mingus Ah Um, which is much less experimental. And this album had parts where it was just straight ahead enjoyable catchy jazz music, but then it would take a hard left turn into avant garde noise. Then it would bring it back to being normal, and then get weird again. I like a little bit of challenge with a record but this one had more sharp edges than I want. Not a bad album, but it does not seem like one that I am likely to revisit all that often.

Eerie—not great evening listening if you enjoy feeling relaxed before bed. Some pretty crazy horn work too that almost sounded like a human voice. Don't think I'll ever listen to this again but I imagine someone more jazz-inclined would really appreciate it.

This is the kind of jazz I don’t particularly like or enjoy. Not for me this one

i don’t know jazz at all, but this is the sort of thing i started this project to find.

Loved it 8/10

This is the most difficult album to listen to and to judge. Did I like it or did I hate it. Sitting on the fence with this. It was noisy with not much melody but I couldn't stop listening to it. Obviously I don't understand jazz very well I'm I probably won't reach the intelligence required to appreciate it. Does it belong on the list. Definitely. May change my vote after more listens.

Not bad

I respect Charles Mingus's unparalleled talent. However, there were points where I thought they were strangling a cat. In other news, I still don't particularly enjoy jazz.

Love it! Powerful, weird, avant garde, romantic, so many things.

Helt vildt stressende album. Den slags jazz, som er fysisk ubehageligt at lytte til. For mig i hvert fald.

Honestly, you can't argue with Mingus. The composition, playing, and recording are all fabulous. This style of jazz is just a bit too chaotic for my taste, so it's a fine line of admiring Mingus, and having a headache when I'm done. With its classical touch and ability to provide some solace in the midst of the madness, "Track C-Group Dancers" is my favorite selection from the album.

It's Mingus.

That’s some good jazzy jazz. Crazy but not totally inaccessible.

pretty awesome

it is oddly refreshing to finally get a jazz album that is a little too jazz for my enjoyment

This is an absolutely amazing album; so unique sounding and odd. Unexpected abrasive bits as well as beautiful melodies and motifs... so many different and strange moods to explore

didn’t expect i’d enjoy listening to this

WOW!!! What a jazz album. Wasn't getting into the first song but with each song it was like an epiphany growing with the last cut being the best jazz I ever heard.

Thanks to this project, I am more impressed with this each time I hear it. I never would have had the motivation to listen multiple times, to think about it, were it not for this project. I’m feeling really grateful today. 5 Boolean: True

The list needs more Mingus

Considering that I have an aversion to jazz, this was ok.

Pretty good! There were a couple of short, discordant passages I didn't much care for, but otherwise, quite enjoyable. I especially liked to classical guitar segments. I also like small recording "errors" that are left in, such as someone yelling "Godamnit!" on this album ⭐⭐⭐

Lots going on. Very expressive playing and the changes keep it interesting.

Not really my kind of jazz but good enough

I often struggle to write about jazz albums, particularly ones as complex as this, as they are by and large above my station. For a brief summary I'll just say that I thought this was excellent and I'll absolutely be coming back for more. This is far more than your typical jazz album, and something which consistently demands your attention through its fusion of multiple flavourings from across the musical hemisphere, alongside its dynamic pacing, thorough unpredictability and immersive, wide-ranging production. Despite all of that, though, it still manages to feel like one piece cycling through several movements. Absolutely one I'd purchase.

Felt like a jumbled mess more than music to me.

To me basic 1950's jazz but some very nice interaction among the band. Probably won't listen to it again but enjoyed it enough this one time through.

It feels kind of old school big band vibe, which I guess makes sense, as there's 11 players. It's different from the jazz I normally listen to (which is a very small sample), and I dont dislike it, I just dont think I'm attuned this this style yet. I'm giving it a 4 for ingenuity at the moment, and at some point I'll have to come back to this album to understand it more.

A masterpiece and absolutely essential listening. Mingus wrote and recorded The Black Saint and The Sinner Lady with a purpose and determination. He composed it about himself and his struggles, anger and need for love and acceptance amongst that backdrop, for others. It is famously the only record with linear notes that were co-written with a psychotherapist. The music is complex and full and complete expression of self. It has repeated phrases, chords and notes that are discovered over time and multiple listens. The repetition is not even necessarily with the same instruments, so a casual listen doesn’t easily pick up the depth and complexity. This is a challenging piece of very deep music presented specifically to experience. Mingus didn’t record this lightly. And he recommended that his fans throw all other pieces of his music away (except one… which he failed to name or re-record as promised). Honestly, I’ve listened to this record a lot of times and still don’t fully “get” it. I know it’s a master work and widely considered one of the greatest of all time. I won’t be arrogant enough to disagree… BUT. It’s not nearly as accessible as popular recordings like A Kind of Blue (1959) or Coltrane’s Giant Steps (1960) or My Favorite Things (1961) - all popular and much more accessible digs into artistic creativity and exploration. I'm not sure that isn't at least a LITTLE disingenuous. After all, it's not meant to be accessible and it wasn't meant to be considered anything other than what it is... Mingus' absolute master work.

3.3/5 - Too jazzy for most days, sometimes too discordant to casually listen to (although not a bad thing at all as it contributes well to the mood the album intends to create). Cool vibes, slick improv, but not something I would listen to again.

There is a lot happening on this record, feels like storytelling. Very interesting and diverse listen!

4.5

3/5

I wish I liked jazz.

All over the place. Didn’t sound good

Saved and will be on repeat!

Some of this sounded like music. Most of it sounded like a jumble of noise. I guess that’s jazz, baby.

Wow, that’s a lot of noise that I don’t want to hear. If you have even the slightest headache, I’d advise you avoid. Nobody’s putting this on for background music while they’re cooking, we’ll say that.

I've not heard such a broad range of tones or moods conveyed so articulately instrumentally before

Moody Jazz, not sure why's it on the list as it doesnt jump out much