The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady

Mingus? Dingus more like. This made my day worse.

I can’t claim to know much about jazz at all. Especially not avant-garde, experimental jazz like this. But I loved this album so much. It’s an album where you just give yourself over to the way the music feels. It teases you with a reprise that you think you’re familiar with, then beats you round the head with a horn section for getting too comfortable. It has moments of delicacy and beauty, and of utter stormy cacophonous noise. Putting aside the stories about Mingus (aggressive, violent bugger, essentially) it feels like these people are all playing for their lives. Quite a thing to behold

It’s good to check in on your preferences once in a while in case your tastes change, sometimes you’ll find you love something you didn’t before, or at least you appreciate it more! In this case, I’m here to report that I still hate jazz.

I can't. I feel like there's some 'emperor's new clothes' thing going on with jazz like this. Like, don't they see he's wearing nothing?! I keep waiting for that eureka moment when I might understand it a little, but it has yet to come. The noise almost hurts my brain, it's overbearing, dissonant, disturbing. Maybe that's the point. I don't get it.

Personally, this is a top 3 jazz album OF ALL TIME. It's dark, unsettling, both fitting of the past and the future. Mingus had been no stranger to aggressive or dark music prior, but goddamn this record takes it to a new level. Required listening for any self-proclaimed fan of jazz. Cannot praise enough.

This touched my thought while my world's affluence crumbled at his feet.

i don't have to say anything about this album. jesus christ what a masterpiece. i give a lot of albums 5s, because i fucking love music, but this is a 6. it's a 10. it's a 100. goddamn.

dirty sexy rollercoaster

This is like as archetypal as experimental jazz gets. Wildly changing time signatures, multiple keys soloing at the same time, crazy studio editing tricks to make it sound even more cacophonous (that flamenco guitar section though). This is one of those records that sounds like it could soundtrack On The Road or something. One of Mingus’ best. Favorite Track: Track-C Group Dancers “(Soul Fusion) Freewoman and Oh, This Freedom's Slave Cries” Least Favorite Track: Track-A Solo Dancers "Stop! Look! And Listen, Sinner Jim Whitney!" (If I had to pick one)

Track A was such a dirty, dark track. I feel like it's telling the story of the sinner lady working as a sex worker. She finishes up with her client and heads to a bar. Track B feels like the black saint and the sinner lady meeting at the bar for the first time and there is this kind of balancing act of hitting it off but also there is some friction between them due to the sinner lady being a sex worker. It still kind of has this like dirty grimy feel to it with some like happy and sexy moments in there. Track C almost feels like regret. Maybe the black saint is feeling regret from what happened the night before. The black saint starts to do mental gymnastics because he enjoyed the night but also does not approve of the sinner lady. Most of this song is him dealing with this cognitive dissonance. Mode D feels like the black saint decided he couldn't deal with the fact that the sinner lady is a sinner. He decides to ignore the sinner lady and never talk to her again. This obviously is a difficult decision for her and you can hear some mental turmoil throughout the song as he's dealing with this. This goes on for a while. He's dealing with this pain the rest of his life. I don't know if I've ever heard and album tell a story this well before. This might not be the story that was intended but it's what I heard. The instruments are acting both as the conversation between the characters and also as the background music and it does such a good job portraying the emotions felt.

Very cool and very interesting organized chaos. I’m relatively familiar with other works by the angry man of jazz, but I had never actually heard this album before. The mixing and organization behind every piece on the album (especially from a pre-stereo view when the album was made) is incredible and shows that deep thought was given to the somewhat avat garde compositions. Also, the shear amount of different instruments on this album is also impressive-it feels like I’m hearing a different horn or woodwind every second-with the Piano always acting as a sort of anchor. And then a guitar shows up out of nowhere! What the fuck! Side 2 of the record (song 4) is easily the blending off all things good and unique. It’s definitely not for everyone, but if you like big band, jazz, or classical music I’d def give this one a listen.

A wonderful artistic expression. It takes you away from any thought or emotion and shows you whatever you need to feel within that small musically accompanied moment. It's absolutely incredible

Killer album. I love the low end, Bass, Tuba, Bari Sax. Just the wide variety of instruments all coming together for such a beautiful piece.

This is heavy music--there's a lot going on here, and I don't think this is a jazz album to drop in the middle of a broader range of styles and say, "Here, this one is one of the best." It may be, but it's for hardcore jazzheads. I think "Mingus Ah Um" or "Mingus Plays Piano" is better for the general listener to get familiar with Mingus. This would be better suited for "1001 Jazz Albums To Hear Before You Die." Great album? Probably. Over my head? Definitely. 3/5, just because our esteemed editors haven't read the room. Including this album is just pretentious or lazy; not sure which.

JAZZ!

To anyone that says, "I don't like jazz", I'd say, "You aren't listening to the right jazz for you then." Jazz is like a therapist -very personal and you may have to try a lot of it before you find the right jazz for you :) <> People on tv who liked jazz were portrayed as pretentious and the jazz they played in movies for those people was like listening to "Free Bird"'s guitar solo on repeat a bajillion times aka not for me AND THEN, Rachael played me a song or two on a most unforgettable road trip. It was big band music and it was stuff I had heard without knowing it (Thanks, Tom & Jerry). I immediately bought the Ken Burns Jazz 5-cd set and wore it out. <> Mingus looks like Bunk from The Wire - who wouldn't like that? ;-) <> Listening to this album, the 40 min flew by so I'd say I liked it as I search for Ken Burns collection on spotify...

I am not @ good judge of jazz or a jazz man at all. Not like I hated it, but wouldn't listen again

Please...please...no more twenty-minute jazz songs. Please.

This brings to mind a remark - maybe from Kevin Shields? - that psychedelia should work on the body as well as the mind, and I follow the song titles as choreographer directions, track one for a single dancer, track 2 for two, so on, though I stumble when I try to match these descriptions with what the musicians are doing. It was incontrovertibly clear to them: even when the music’s bursting at the seams, it’s in formation. The saunters and gallops are tremendous, with louche preambles suggesting they’re ultimately fornicating to pieces, which is pleasing. Also brought to mind are comminplace filmic comparisons, tolerated 30 years later by Portishead - soundtracks for unmade films. Tracks lack the repetition of and return to motif of song, closer to sound-image making, the wilder parts anticipating Morricone’s freakiest tracks. The stealth-surrealists at the Walt Disney Corporation could have illustrated this with a film that would’ve gone down equally well in vernissages and smut theatres. A friend’s eldest child is called Mingus. They’re both very cool.

Yo this jazz is HOT Big textures Bold horns Dark club sandwiched with Spanish guitar It works HOT

So many things come to mind when hearing this album. It sounds like a party gone mad. It sounds like the music is ready to fall apart at any moment but somehow still holds together. It sounds like it could be the soundtrack to some bawdy film noir. Then throughout there's moments of utter peace and beauty. I would say there isn't a jazz album like it but that's too obvious. Is it even a jazz album? There's the problem with labels. It has to be categorized somehow so that it can be placed in the appropriate section in the record bins. Very few jazz albums also feature both a Tuba and a Classical Guitar (that would be bonus points if it already didn't deserve its 5 stars but the music already accomplished that) This review could go on for a while if I went into everything that went through my mind when listening to it instead of just touching on the broad ideas in the first paragraph. It's been a few years since I put this on and I had to listen to it twice and want to put it on yet again. Thank you Mingus!

It's been a while since I binge-listened to most of the Mingus discography. I'd forgotten just how good this masterpiece is. It takes the legacies of blues and swing, distils it into wild avant-garde big band jazz, and triple-filters the liquor through classical, folk dance and Spanish guitar. It's a mind-melting achievement, which sounds incredibly fresh and urgent and unique, even after decades of being a widely celebrated record. I love how the ferocious energy bubbles up into different sounds, then a lid goes on temporarily. The ups and downs give it a narrative structure - not that it tells me a story, but that you feel it taking the shape of a progressing narrative. But honestly, I'm making it sound academic and boring, when it is actually an energising rollercoaster. 5*

For me, this is the absolute pinnacle of Third Stream, and Mingus’s greatest masterwork.

This is what ADHD sounds like when you like jazz

The perfect balance between melody and noise. 7/10 FT: Track C

This was recorded in one day, these cats were on top of their game. I've been a fan of Mingus for a while. When a much younger me was a bass player I always paid more attention when the bassist had a prominent role in writing. This really is a masterpiece. 5 stars all day.

The Black Saint and the Sinner Lady is a steamroller of a record, a steamy soundtrack to some sort of excessive yet controlled bash, a cosmopolitan assembly, a rooftop brawl. A fearsome lot is going on this album, but the main point is understood: the center couldn't hold, but the collapse has a beauty, a logic of its own. Mingus put together one of the greatest albums of all time w/ this four-piece masterpiece, and I do not tire of listening to it. Strangely too, it fits more moods than you'd initially think: there's quiet in it, there's stillness, there's a supported contemplativeness, particularly at the outset of the third movement. The ever-fertile touch is Jay Berliner's Spanish guitar work. America's composer after Duke and Monk is Mingus.

maravilloso maravilloso maravilloso

Man, I fucking love this music. It's my favorite type of jazz. Track B was the jam. I will be listening to more of this gentleman. This is a 5 from me.

Brilliant. One of the best Jazz albums.

Was already familiar with this album. One of my favorite jazz albums. And was the perfect choice for this gloomy summer day in SF. 5/5

Epic

There were some lulls, but, I feel like I went on a journey that I really couldn't resist. This is a jazz album I'd share with anyone looking to learn more about jazz.

I'm sorry Charles Mingus, I wasn't familiar with your game.

Ladies and gentlemen, we've arrived. I've been a Mingus Head for a while, though I hadn't heard this one. I've heard others, like Pithencanthropus Erectus and Blues and Roots. I've known this to be his big masterpiece, and I've been looking forward to hearing it. Boy, does it deliver. Just four tracks, but each incorporates so many facets of jazz and spans so many genres and subgenres with ease. I love these tracks often start out unassuming, or in a style of refined jazz that might seem safe, and then they just explode with life. Instruments are made to moan and scream, it's jarring. There's so much going on that obviously I can't process everything on one listen, but it's just so great that I know there will be many more listens to come. Immediately entering my handful of top jazz albums though, what a behemoth. Mingus is the man. Favorite tracks: All of 'em, though one highlight that sticks out is the flamenco-style guitar near the beginning of the last track, so beautiful. Album art: Pretty unassuming. The text and style is very bold, but to be comfortable with a cover this simple I'm interpreting to mean Mingus knew he cooked up something otherworldly, and he wanted to catch listeners off-guard. It worked. 5/5

I really loved this. It had elements of minimalism, with long sustained ostinatos, almost droning. The tempo and meter shifts were surprising. For a jazz album, there weren't as many solos as I would expect, but they were interesting.

A great expression of free jazz, the emotion and passion that Mingus gets into his albums is almost unrivaled to me.

v nice jazz

An amazing album of pure jazz enthusiasts who appreciate his artistry. One of the best, with Miles and T. Monk. Enjoy!

Typically when considering the greatest jazz albums of all time, the list is topped by Miles' Kind of Blue and Coltrane's A Love Supreme, while The Black Saint And The Sinner is usually positioned somewhere in the second tier. Black Saint is an excellent expresssion of Mingus' genius, though personally I think there are a few of his other albums that are a bit more accessible (Mingus Ah Um, Tijuana Moods).

Is this good jazz or bad jazz? It's so hard to tell sometimes. Plus this album toes the line by being pretty energetic and boisterous. Overall, I liked it though. So I'm going to say it's good jazz.

Really fun concept album, it was a little hard to get into until track B, but I would probably listen again. Like “Sketches of Spain” Mingus demonstrates talent but it’s not exactly catchy.

A little turned off by the farting noise in my right ear for the first minute or so but then things got nicely layered before breaking into a discordant mess then lurching into a groove where the bass really shines. It feels as if the instruments are competing against each other rather than working together. Interesting approach. Track B is more appealing--slow, languid with bursts of what sounds like something trying to catch up then coming together into a ferocious race. The rest of the album is a compelling listen--this is not jazz to play in the background while you have a cocktail and chat with your neighbor. This is jazz to play when you want everyone to leave so you can lie down and think about how much you hate them. Also, did someone say God Dammit on the last track?

these cats did in fact cook

Jazz piano has my heart

I'm an absolutely massive swing-era jazz fan --I love swing dancing-- but as jazz moved away from the swing era to bebop, modal, and other genres I kinda lose interest since it just isn't for me. Nonetheless, I found this album did work for me, even if it's a bit more experimental, although I don't see myself returning to it any time soon. Solid jazz played by solid musicians.

I like jazz music, but for no good reason, I don't listen to it so frequently. This album is a good remember that I need to listen to it more and more. An excellent album for all days.

Amazing. His 'Blues & Roots' is my favourite jazz record of all time, but this is up there.

Nice background music.

A very interesting album. For long stretches, I also liked it very much. However, there were also more difficult parts that I didn't get on with so well. The album is certainly very good, but I probably won't listen to it again soon. 3/5

I don't think I'm smart enough to fully appreciate this. 3/5

I was pleased with the flamenco bits.

Lots of interesting themes on here, but little of it stuck. My kids quite liked it, unusual for a jazz record - perhaps because it does sound quite "dance"-oriented, rhythmic?

Mingus is great, not my favorite album of his, my personal favorite is blues and roots but this is still very good. High 3.

Saved Prior: None Saved Off Rip: None Cutting Edge: None Overall Notes: Yes that was in fact jazz. Don't know enough about jazz to really understand what makes good jazz and what doesn't. Sounded pretty good to me, but also sounded like good ol' jazz.

I really tried to find the artistic side of this album and see a way to enjoy it, but with all the respect in my heart this just felt like a pure cacophony of noise lol. It definitely feels like the soundtrack for any manic pixie dream girl of the late 50’s early 60’s. Mad respect to Mingus but just not my style.

No private session used for Spotify. I listened to this album twice, trying to get into. I like some jazz, but this goes a bit off the rails for me, it's too eclectic and admittedly over my head.

The gulf between how much I wanted to like this and how much I actually liked this was very wide. It was too chaotic and noisy for me. There are some runs I really liked, but I just couldn't get into this. I feel like a disappointment for not liking it.

Music to have a psychotic break from reality to! This is mostly just a ton of noises not in harmony. Then something cool pops up and is quickly discarded. Ultimately, my dislike of jazz got the better of me here. It wasn't totally unlistenable though, so it avoids the dreaded 1 star score.

This challenge has not been kind to me this weekend. First, Super Furry Animals—and now, more jazz. Unfortunately, this album felt like dull background music. The tracks blended together so seamlessly that I struggled to tell when one ended and another began. Track 3, in particular, stood out—but not in a good way. It had an odd, 1950s Disney-esque vibe that felt completely out of place. Very bizarre. I can’t help but wonder how many more jazz or swing albums I’ll have to endure. Favorite track: None stood out enough to pick. Least favorite track: Track 3, without a doubt. Album artwork: Nothing noteworthy to mention.

I can defo see and understand the attraction to this album and its brilliance. Its just not really for me!

Sounds like you give a preschool class some wind instruments and drums and press record. Just can't get into that stuff.

Jazz noises Is this music? They are clearly musicians, but I don't want to listen to it.

It’s incredible how emotive this can be without any instruments. We get quiet and thoughtful, to chaotic and wild, to sexy, and then to triumphant all in one track. Love the guitars and the bass.

This is so good. It’s experimental, brooding, emotional. Easy 5.

Très bon, très très bon.

First 5-star. I should listen to more jazz.

JAZZ. This is pure undiluted jazz.

Made me feel like I was in a movie

Sophisticated and reiterative.

It was an interesting album very different from what I am used to but it grew on me

I’ve been Mingus’d

ok i like this game again

This Mingus album is a lingus test for good music. Er, sorry, litmus test. It created a sort of mingua franca for all future jazz releases. Er, sorry, lingua franca. Please don't forget it's mingUS not mingYOU or mingME Fav song: Group Dancers prolly which has that riff that is good enough for an entire album of its own (also repeated in track 4)

smooth jazz

Genial

Un álbum perfecto. Es tan bueno que me he dado cuenta que el disco solito te va enseñando a cómo escucharlo y sobre todo cómo apreciar el género. Cómo ir notando cada instrumento que forma parte de un todo absolutamente genial. Increíble.

Well…. Just amazing. Imagine how this would sound live!

Absolutely brilliant, a jazz essence that very much travels around a lot of genre of style. Gorgeous strumming and beautiful horn play, I am hooked.

Multilayered masterpiece that stands as one of my favorite jazz albums due to its experimental and complex nature

felt like i was being spoken into my soul, like i was watching someone’s inner and most deep thoughts in front of me, not all of them were bad, most of em were beautiful like nothing else. it was a beautiful listen.

Best album of all time, opened my eyes

I'm not fucking around when I say it's maybe the best album of this challenge so far, about a tenth of the way in. I'd give this a 6/5 if I could. This is the type of jazz I'd call captivating. It made me want to lie down and close my eyes to take nothing but the music in. The second time I listened to it, with my headphones, I felt like I was being carried away. Impeccable.

What a freaking journey, man. This album takes you through so many moods, at times switching them up all rapid-fire like, but with a real sense of narrative behind it all. I could not tell you exactly what the intended story about - all I know is it's a ballet with a black saint and a sinner lady somewhere in there - but the emotional beats, the musical callbacks, the cathartic fuckin ending, they're all pretty evocative even without any lyrics. Hell, I'd consider the Spanish guitar as its own character the way its appearance (and later reappearance) had me hyped the fuck out. Incredible stuff that goes beyond just jazz here. Love the way everything comes together. It'll need a few more listens to fully digest, especially the more cacophonic parts, but I feel good about a 5 given the peaks it had on these first two listens

Mingus is so awesome. His music both demands and rewards your undivided attention. Very rarely do i listen to an album without getting distracted, checking my phone, or cleaning, but I sat down and enjoyed this one uninterrupted. So many interesting ideas and you never know what he'll do next - and in my opinion, this isn't even his best album.

I went in to this album expecting to give a relatively low score, and after the getting most of the way through track A I felt that a 2 or maybe 3 was in order. It started somewhat slowly and felt a bit repetitive. It's unfortunate the album starts in the way it does because I feel it can easily put someone off the album, it certainly did for me, leading me to pay less attention to the coming tracks. I re-listened later to rectify this after thoroughly enjoying the final track. When the saxophone came in during Track A though I knew there was something special about this album. Unfortunately, Track A to me is still the worst, the initial section goes on for too long, whereas the other tracks are consistent with sprinkles of magic throughout this only really takes off when the saxophone comes in. But when it comes, wow. It steals the show. Throughout the album you'll so often be hit with a bunch of instruments at the same time and yet somehow it just works, sometimes it feels like the music is screaming out, other times that different instruments are at odds with each other but intentionally so. The opening to track B is so beautiful, slow and serene, with a pretty piano and later on delightful horns. Then it sounds like something is approaching, almost cartoonish then these weird like vocal sounds come in which I love and the track just keeps gaining pace, its exciting and has this impending feel to it. Eventually it finally calms down, near silence, then bam, back to life once more. C starts with a pretty relaxed piano, simple yet super effective. The flute throughout is such a beautiful addition, then we get hit with this Spanish guitar. I have no clue how it manages to balance all of this without sounding like an absolute mess. I have to imagine there is a lot being said here that I'm missing due to my lack of fluency with music in general. The last track is a long one, 18 minutes, and it does not disappoint. Again it's hard to my finger on exactly what it is doing but it made me feel such strong emotion. Beyond it being somewhat positive I'm not sure how to describe it, I want to say hope with a hint excitement but I don't think that quite covers the range, but it had such a weight to it; I can name few other songs that achieve the same. I will note, this isn't the easiest or most fun listen at times. I wouldn't expect to come back to this music much. Despite that, what this album managed to achieve for me is extremely impressive, and I can only imagine my appreciation for it growing over time. Best tracks - Track B- Duete Solo Dancers, Track C- Group Dancers, Medley: Mode D / Mode E / Mode F Worst track - Track A- Solo Dancer

What is there to say?

Flagship Jazz album here. Mingus is a true master of jazz orchestration. Horns wail on this thing unlike many jazz albums. Mingus uses them to communicate fiercely and in honest fashion. They meander, they trail off and squawk back into centerfold at breakneck speeds. There's so much character in each of the compositions. The supporting instruments, usually in the form of strings (including piano) are incredibly bold but never cloud the stage or take anything away from the pacing. Mingus is raw and Mingus certainly plays no games. It's a wonderful record, and one that would like to argue with you at any time of day. The closer ties it up so nicely by revisiting the instrumental themes but speeding up and playing even more intensely a 3rd or 4th time around, then slowing them down and playing it entirely differently results in a new mood. Expression is potent stuff.

Excellenf

Awesome! Didn't know this, but I loved it.

5 A classic Jazz album that doesn't sound like a classic Jazz album. Meticulous composition from Mingus that skillfully matches themes and variations from Classical music with the undercurrent of Jazz. Masterful and still beautiful.

Extraordinary record combining social history, outre jazz and remarkable songwriting

Wow, there is something compelling about this. It really drew me in. Going to see this live with the intended ballet would be amazing. Apparently ‘third stream’ is the sub genre for me. I really dig the fusion of jazz and classical. What a lovely discovery

man, sometimes you listen to an album and you are just blown away. this is one of them. i'm not a huge jazz guy but i have a light appreciation for the genre at large. this is unlike most jazz i've ever heard. obviously it's got a bit of a big band feel but it is off the rails and fun. it is chaotic, and yet, extremely organized in its chaos. if you're looking at the "machine" from afar, it may seem chaotic, but if you take a closer look, you can see all the pieces working together and executing perfectly. this thing never gets boring. it ebbs and flows in such a fascinating way. slow, fast, soft, loud. everything just works so fell. simply a well-crafted, incredibly interesting and fascinating piece. music is art, but this, to me, is art as music.

Charles Mingus was already probably my favorite jazz musician. Ah Hum is so good and is one of my favorite albums ever. So now I get to listen to his most acclaimed work! I'm gonna try and write this in real time too! Track A sets this off on a super high note. Those Horns are insane! And the climax at the end is fantastic. I cried to Track B. It's so good Oh my god. The Horns once again are out of this world, but the piano here is utterly perfect. The Speed-ups are crazy and the slowdowns are even better. Track C has a flute!?! And a guitar!?? Holy cow this is so good. Man I don't even know what to say, this is just perfect. Now the Medley. the guitar is back and better then ever. I genuinely am having trouble describing this. It's changing every second it's insane. It just keeps going it's like a forest of sound it's unbelievable. It just goes where ever it pleases and pulls you along for the ride. It's beautiful. Well, that is easily my new favorite jazz album and one of my new all time favorite albums ever. Genuinely Perfect, I have no complaints. 10/10

I am in the majority (a supposed majority, that is) of people that would claim they do not fully 'understand' Jazz. I'm still very much inclined to feel this way, but what I can say is that Mingus does his best on each track to create ideas that welcome all with some pretty raucous, jovial and open arms. An absolute delight to give this one a listen, and really I salute the power––previously unbeknownst to me––of musical expression in Jazz. Sure, there are some weird moments, but they are all designed to bring me as the listener SOMEWHERE. "Touch my beloved's thought while her world's affluence crumbles at my feet". Spicy. Sad. Intriguing. 9/10

Fantastic record. Organised Chaos.

These jazz albums never miss

One of the craziest and tightest Jazz albums ever, if you don't like this album I just don't know what you are doing

I really enjoyed this album that I had to listen twice. The first time, it made me sleep like a baby